Family Dynamics, Gun Ownership, and More: Kellie Carter Jackson and Edward Jackson
⭐ Faith and Family Conflict: Patriarchy, Guns, and more with Kellie Carter Jackson (Wellesley College, author of We Refuse) & Edward Jackson (instructor and owner of 333 Jiu Jitsu). In this honest and powerful conversation, Kellie Carter Jackson and Edward Jackson (brother-and-sister-in-law) dive into the real-life tensions many Christians face around faith and family conflict. From disagreements over patriarchy, guns and gun ownership, and political divides, to navigating tough topics with love and wisdom, this video offers a nuanced, faith-based approach to handling difficult relationships. Rooted in biblical principles, theological learning, and curious faith, this discussion is perfect for anyone exploring how to engage family and faith with both conviction and compassion.
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Description
💬 Faith and Family Conflict: Patriarchy, Guns, and more with Kellie Carter Jackson (Wellesley College, author of We Refuse) & Edward Jackson (instructor and owner of 333 Jiu Jitsu). In this honest and powerful conversation, Kellie Carter Jackson and Edward Jackson (brother-and-sister-in-law) dive into the real-life tensions many Christians face around faith and family conflict. From disagreements over patriarchy, guns and gun ownership, and political divides, to navigating tough topics with love and wisdom, this video offers a nuanced, faith-based approach to handling difficult relationships. Rooted in biblical principles, theological learning, and curious faith, this discussion is perfect for anyone exploring how to engage family and faith with both conviction and compassion.
Resources
📚 Check out Kellie's book, We Refuse: https://www.kelliecarterjackson.com/books
Edward Jackson's studio: https://www.333jiujitsu.com/
Generated Transcript
speaker-0 (00:00.718)
Our final theology session in this series deals with family, faith, and the patriarchy and gun ownership. What you're about to see is a wonderfully live and spontaneous conversation. The guests are a sister and brother-in-law pairing. Kelly Carter Jackson is a history professor who appears regularly in public news outlets.
speaker-1 (00:01.794)
labs.
and some contentious themes.
What does it look like for t-
speaker-1 (00:26.892)
right early on TV.
speaker-0 (00:30.08)
Edward Jackson is a business professional who runs a martial arts studio in Chicago. If you enjoy their conversation, you can help out by clicking the like and subscribe button below. Here's the conversation between Kelly and
speaker-2 (00:44.696)
Hey guys, I am so glad to be with you here today. Thank you for, don't know, offering yourself to this conversation about what it looks like to be family members who don't always agree on everything and how to navigate it. I guess if you wanted to start by just telling us a little bit about your family relationship and what are the kinds of interactions that you've had together?
speaker-1 (01:08.056)
first step where you want me.
speaker-0 (01:09.236)
Ladies first, I insist.
speaker-1 (01:11.438)
Well, I should tell everyone that I've known Edward, I would say all my life, like for a really long time. His brother's my husband and we met when I was seven years old. So our families went to the same church. I'm one of seven, Edward's the oldest of five. So we were one of those few families that just had a lot of kids in the church and we connected right away. And our families have always really been close. Ever since we started going to church together.
We did a lot of life together. And even into like adulthood, when Nathaniel and I started dating, it really rekindled our family's relationships, especially when we got married. But we're very different. And I say that as I'm, and Edward can chime in on this too, like I feel like in our family dynamic, I would probably be seen as the liberal and-
I feel like my family has always been traditionally democratic, always voted democratic, things of that nature, and very Christian, but at the same time, very open, I would say, in our sort of faith approach. And I've always known the Thangos family to be on the more conservative side of center, more right of center. But because our core is always Christ, and I was always been Christ, I feel like we have a home base that we come back to.
But if we stay away from home base, know, if we get first, second or third, we get a little, it gets a little far away from that.
speaker-2 (02:42.604)
Edward, what do you think about that description? What would you add to that?
speaker-0 (02:45.678)
I like what you said. Let me see if I can refine some of the family history stuff on my side. We are probably as conservatives as you would expect Midwestern evangelicals to be, right? But I think there's another, while it's not unfair to say you're right of center, I think that a more accurate characterization is that
We're just really rebellious.
speaker-1 (03:18.23)
Coturian, coturian.
speaker-0 (03:20.186)
It doesn't matter what people try to tell us what to believe, we sort of make up our mind issue by issue. And there can be some intense discussions because of that. And so I think that's where that comes from. It's not really, I don't know, name your 1980s evangelical influencer who sort of made the Midwest.
up colored the Midwest what it was. It was just, we developed some ideas that sort of strayed from what the urban black culture sort of tainted that people should think.
speaker-1 (04:04.635)
Yeah, that's fair. I think that's fair, yeah.
speaker-2 (04:06.744)
So sort of like you can't necessarily put everybody in a box. There are some boxes where we're sure it makes some sense, but also don't put me in all of those boxes. And if we're gonna be put in a box together, it is like what Callie said, it's in this box with Jesus at the end of the day that we all are coming back to that.
speaker-0 (04:25.164)
Yes, yes, absolutely. No, no, very central to all of where our ideas develop is, where did you see that in Scripture? Is that the example that Christ gave for us? If we cannot bring some political opinion home to something that we read in Scripture, either it's not what Christ wanted or it's irrelevant to His operation.
speaker-1 (04:47.33)
Yeah. Yeah. it's not worth quibbling over. There you go. Yeah.
speaker-0 (04:51.619)
Yeah.
speaker-2 (04:53.806)
It was interesting, Kelly, when you started the conversation, you described the differences between you as being kind of on a political spectrum. Edward, you referenced political or social perspectives as well. So obviously, this is a part of y'all's family dynamic. It is a part of every person's family dynamics right now. Can you go share a time where there was an issue or a belief that you disagreed on that you did not handle well?
speaker-1 (05:20.684)
Ho, ho. I can. And everyone I've talked about this many times. And let me just say, like, we buried the hatchet. We're good. You know what I mean? We have a family group chat, and we got into a group debate, if you will put it that way. It started out talking about Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill. And then, and you know, I just for the record, abhor Clarence Thomas. And I very much respect Anita Hill.
And then that went snowballed into sexual harassment and our different views about it. And it got so heated. Everyone was tit for tat in the group chat. Like, what about this? And then about this? da, da, da, da, da, da. And we had to have a cooling off period. And then I don't know how much longer after that we talked.
feel like Edward and I, when we have conversations where we need to squash certain things, we give ourselves a little bit of distance and then we can talk about it. I do remember another conversation that came up. was like when Nathan was getting out of the military and you had sharp feelings about how he was, about him leaving the military. And I felt like you were blaming it on me. Like, you know, like, Kelly wants you to leave, so you're just gonna do it Kelly wants.
And we've had a lot of disagreements that I feel like have evolved from either gender roles or things that I would consider like toxic masculinity or something like that. Now we've agreed to like not hit buttons, like not to intentionally step on a landmine or push a landmine that you know will set things off.
speaker-2 (07:13.26)
Edward, do you remember, you know, let's go back to that Anita Hill, Clarence Thomas text conversation. How do you remember that conversation?
speaker-0 (07:21.646)
it was so hot. And I think, I don't remember every detail, but I think in that discussion in particular, there was some goading on by other members that wasn't helpful. Something that we've all learned from. And Kelly was very gracious in like taking responsibility for
her part in the hurt feelings.
speaker-1 (07:56.692)
I said some things that were nice.
speaker-0 (07:59.47)
And hopefully she feels like I took an appropriate amount of responsibility for hurting people's feelings in that discussion as well and other discussions. don't remember, you brought up the thing about Nathaniel getting out of the Air Force. I don't remember that at all. You're gonna have to remind me what that was about.
speaker-1 (08:18.798)
was a long conversation. This was when we still lived in New York. Nathaniel was working two jobs. He was a pilot at FedEx and then, or just got hired at FedEx. And then he was also working as the National Guard, which it just took a lot of his time. And he was commuting constantly. And by the time we had Josephine, our second child daughter, I was over it. I was like, listen, this is not gonna work for me.
Priority needs to be like, you you're have to quit this job. You're gonna have to let it go. I don't come to that easily. Nathaniel has always wanted to have a robust military career. That was his dream when he first started out flying. It hasn't always been that for him. And so it was a very tough decision to say, okay, I'm gone all the time. Like I leave one job and I go to another job. I'm going to have to let the military go.
And I remember him coming home and having, he was upset and I was like, why are you upset? And he was like, I had a conversation with Edward. It didn't go really well. Like I felt like I needed encouragement. I needed support. And it was like, sort of like, you you've got to be the man. You've got to be the head of the house. You can't make these decisions. You can't let Kelly just bulldoze you into making these decisions. And it felt very much like, you know, the little lady can't decide. Like, Niteen and I in our marriage, there was very much a...
a partnership, I don't espouse to patriarchy. like, it's very much like we're equally head of house. We talk about things, we decide things. Sometimes I have to relinquish, sometimes he has to relinquish. But when I hear language like that, that feels like, you know, like put your wife in her place. I have a visceral response to how that feels or how that, or how we operate as a couple.
also felt like there were times in Edward's marriage where Edward was working in Indianapolis and commuting and going back and forth. And I know that was really taxing on Elizabeth and his kids. And I was like, there's a double standard here. So Edward can leave his job, but you can't leave your job. And we talked for like three hours. But I felt like we needed to get at the root of why I was upset, but also like why it was said and where it was coming from.
speaker-0 (10:44.27)
Yeah, you know, I said earlier in this call that it's really easy for me to abandon systems of thought that don't work for me anymore. And I imagine that if we had that conversation today, I would probably be much more understanding of your position as a father of four and a business owner than I was then. I am not so like.
Put your woman in her place. Does it sound like me?
speaker-1 (11:18.368)
No, I'm being facetious.
speaker-0 (11:20.75)
Okay, if if what he reported to you, and I'm not saying that he'd like, I'm not indicting Nathaniel. If his interpretation of what I said was you need to put Kelly in her place. I don't, I don't think that I would have said something like that. I probably you said you don't believe in patriarchy. I do very much believe in patriarchy. Like,
God is gonna hold the man responsible for 100 % of the outcomes in his family. And so if you delegate this decision to your wife, you run the risk of being like Adam when he was like, well, she gave it to me.
you need to make this decision and make the best decision for your family and not immediately do with your what your wife said, even if your wife is right, like your wife could be right, but you still need to search yourself and pray and find an answer that you put your feet on and then make that decision for your family, which is not very much not the same as put that woman in her place. Yeah, I know.
speaker-1 (12:32.504)
Yeah.
you're saying, I also mean, but for the untrained ear or for someone who is not grown up in that kind of, those kinds of beliefs or those kinds of ideas, is, for me, it's very hard to square patriarchy, even biblically, because when I look at, this is how we would go back to the scripture, right? I would be like, okay, well, before the fall of man, like Adam and Eve are very much,
like equals their partners, like, and patriarchy is a result of the fall of man. Like after sin enters the world, in scripture, God is like, okay, woman, part of the consequences, you will be underneath him. Which says to me, okay, so patriarchy then is a result of sin. It is a consequence of sin. It is not exactly how God intended the world to be when it was without sin.
Edward wouldn't have issue with this, but when people say things like, he's the man of the house or he's the head of the household or he's, you know, I have issue with that. I have issue that, and not because I want to be the woman of the household either, not because I want to be the boss of Nathaniel, but because I see ourselves as equal partners in how we navigate our family. because we're equal partners, that means we will always have to take L's and
and navigate that together. And that doesn't always look beautiful either. Do you know what I mean? Cause marriage is hard. Marriage is very hard. But that is something that I've been, that is something that I feel like is not just personal for me, but also spiritual for me or scriptural. That is how I look at it biblically.
speaker-0 (14:22.862)
Yeah, and I think if you were to go back to the tape, if you had a hidden camera in my house and you looked at the way that my wife and I operate, think based on your description that you would say, of course, that's exactly what I said. That the way we represent these ideas come from different places. But in practice, end up being like we, we often so often end up in the very same place.
from very different perspectives. so waiting just a second to hear the other person out helps us. It helps us a whole lot, yeah.
speaker-1 (15:01.154)
Yes!
Yes, we wound up getting, we always get to the same place. And here's the other thing, and this is what I love about Edward, is that like, Edward does believe in patriarchy. Can I say that? You do believe in patriarchy. You're a big proponent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, but at the same time.
speaker-0 (15:19.694)
You should probably stop to define I'm not going to. But like, there's some caveats and... Yes, yes, That's unfair.
speaker-1 (15:27.092)
If you saw how Edward ran, how Edward and Elizabeth established their households, Edward does not tell Elizabeth what to do. He's not like, you know, like he, and Elizabeth is not bossing him around. You know, like even their gender roles for a long time, Edward was a stay at home dad. And Edward still is the primary cook.
in their house and he's a wonderful cook, fantastic. But like in the way that we think of traditional gender roles, Edward and Elizabeth's marriage has not really been a reflection of that. And so I've always seen him or heard him say it one way, but the way I see your relationship play out to me is actually a lot more egalitarian than what I think other people might think of you.
speaker-0 (16:16.91)
When I think about patriarchy, I'm not thinking about like leave it to beaver patriarchy. I'm not thinking about the United States in the 1950s. I'm thinking about like Abraham and Sarah. I'm thinking about Joseph and Mary, right? My belief in any sort of patriarchy begins and ends with the idea that God is gonna hold me responsible for 100 % of the outcomes in my family.
Now that doesn't mean that I can't cook or clean. That doesn't mean that like that that I am the holder of all knowledge. God bless me with a very intelligent, sometimes willful, which is fine. Wife who is a week that my wife and I joke all the time about the story of Abigail, whose husband I can't even remember his name. He made King David mad and David threatened to kill him. So Abigail goes and
begs for her husband's life and David spares her husband. And she does this more than once. The husband ends up getting killed by David anyway. But like the story is this wonderful woman keeps bailing out her troublesome husband. Okay. Sometimes the story of Elizabeth and Edward resembles the story of Abigail and whatever that guy's name was. So, so,
speaker-1 (17:39.207)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (17:43.035)
Patriarchy is about personal responsibility, not domination in my eyes.
speaker-1 (17:48.494)
Mmm. Mmm.
speaker-2 (17:51.854)
How did you guys get to a point? I mean, this is just super powerful because you're live processing a core difference between you guys while offering grace, while assuming the best of each other, while like affirming the ways that you see Jesus at work in the other person. How did you learn how to be that way with each other in these kinds of like core disagreements?
speaker-0 (18:22.343)
trial and error. Yes! Yes! Yes!
speaker-1 (18:26.654)
Yes, that and we love each other. We love each, we like each other. Now sometimes hard, liking each other, but for the most part, when we are in each other's presence and when we are in each other's company, there is so much love and joy there. And I think, and Edward and I talked about this before, like a core Jackson belief, core Jackson belief is loyalty.
like above all else, like loyalty. Like we might argue, but when we get out in public, when we get out in the street, it's a united front. You know what I mean? I know that Edward would have my back and vice versa. Like we would not try to also intentionally harm the other person. We might goad, we might needle, but we're never trying to.
diminish or squash the other person, you know? But yeah, but it's taken a long, we don't, and listen, we don't always get it right. We might find next week. I wanna make that clear. This is not like, we are not like, look at us, we did it. know, like I know that we will continue to stumble through this, but.
I feel safer stumbling through it, knowing that we will work to give each other the benefit of the doubt or the advantage of like, hey, we do love each other. Let's come back to that.
speaker-2 (20:06.19)
One of the things that I see happen in families a lot is that hurt happens and it wasn't intended, but people don't know how to bring up that they were hurt in the first place. How have you navigated that to allow sort of repair to happen?
speaker-1 (20:23.074)
when it comes to conflict, we're like, put me in coach. I think Edward and I do not have, we don't tip toe around, Edward's not timid about saying how he feels and vice versa. And if I feel harmed by Edward or offended, I don't feel like I can't tell him because I have that I've been offended. And if I tell him that I've been offended,
I don't think he's never been like, well, kick rocks, I don't care. He's always like, okay, so let me hear you out. And because he's willing to hear me out, that changes it.
speaker-0 (21:04.782)
My career has been, I've been two things. I've either been a salesperson or recently in the past few years, I've owned my own martial arts business. having difficult conversations with people, having conflict with people is what I do. Right? Like the idea of conflict with another person that will don't threaten me with a good time.
Because because mature people can figure it out now It's very uncomfortable when someone like takes their ball and goes home But if you're if you're partnered with a person who takes their ball and goes home The consolation prize is that you know their limit and they don't know yours that that You're gonna win one way
you're eventually going to win because they run out of resources. And so like I've challenged myself to be the sort of person whose feelings you really can't hurt. And my ex my career experience has helped me do that. There's nothing like calling hundreds of people who don't want to talk to you to sort of insulate you against against one more person who doesn't want to talk to you or whatever.
I'm good at two things, convincing people to do what I want with my words a little bit at a time and resisting people who want to unfairly change me. And so I'm willing to hear people out. Like your argument is my argument if there's a flaw in it. If I'm right, we'll find out. If I'm wrong, we'll find out.
But we will find out if we don't talk.
speaker-1 (23:00.718)
Yeah, yeah, that's real and communication is key I've also found to that like if Edward or Elizabeth or any of my siblings if we go too long without communicating I Can create my own narrative about why that might be right? So I might be like, oh well They're not coming for Christmas this year. It's cuz they don't want to be with my family. You know what I mean? Like and it
It could absolutely be like, you know, we're busy or, you know, finances are tight or, you know, whatever. But I have, I've been known to like say, hey, you got it. You can't create these stories that don't exist until you have that conversation until, until Edward says, no, I don't want to spend time with you or whatever. Like, you know, which he would not say, but like, I also have to tell myself that like a lot of these things are not personal. And that's why
A lot of our debates have actually, a lot of our debates, I would say maybe half of them, have been either through text message or through a second person, not when you have that one-on-one interaction. you know what mean? We had what squashes a lot of the beef is because I heard a story and then I created a narrative, or I read a text and then I created a narrative, and then I went down a rabbit hole with that narrative, and then another thing, and then, you know what I mean?
So when we are face to face, it makes it a lot easier to on the spot, like correct or get perspective. I'm like, okay, that's what you meant by that or whatever it is. The hard thing with Edward and Elizabeth and the thing and our families, we just don't see each other enough. We don't see each other enough. We live in Massachusetts, they're in Chicago. They have a big family, we have a big family.
the amount of time that we can get up our weddings and funerals and maybe the offhand visit. And I love seeing my family. I absolutely love seeing my family. I hate it when I go too long. I don't want my kids to not know their cousins, to know their aunt, to know their uncle, to not to be like, would hate, I'd be devastated if they got in a room and they were like, wait, who's that again? And what's her name? Do you know what I mean? Like that would just crush me. So I know that part of...
speaker-1 (25:20.91)
Part of my solution is we have to be more intentional about spending time and seeing each other and talking on the phone and being direct and not letting things get lost in those imaginary stories.
speaker-0 (25:36.078)
I think that something so important in what you just said, that is that engagement is the answer to many of these difficulties. And the more you engage, the more likely you are to eventually get along.
speaker-1 (25:52.76)
intuitive because most people will cut you off. Do know what I mean? I can't tell you how many siblings are estranged because they're like, don't mess with them no more. We haven't talked in years. Well, that's kind of part of the problem.
speaker-0 (26:05.036)
Yeah. So I, hopefully this admission doesn't like create the wrong idea about it. But my wife and I had date night last night and, some acquaintances of mine started a fight promotion and there were some MMA fights at a local venue. And we went last night and we watched these two young men, probably about 19 or 20 beat each other up for about 15 minutes. And then at the end they like,
bowed on their knees to each other, gave each other hugs. And I was laughing with my wife like, there's no faster way to make two boys friends than to make them fight, right? I'm not advocating actual family fistfights, but that verbal engagement to like find out the true texture of this person's emotional and rhetorical being.
helps, like, even if you don't agree, it gets you to know that person and become familiar with them. And it helps you access that part of you that can have empathy and warm feelings. You probably wouldn't be interested if they were too much like you. I remember seeing a picture of a mom who had two kids who didn't get along. And so she got a big shirt.
and she wrote, get along shirt, and she put the two kids in the same shirt until they could get along. We need more of that. But with adults, like they can have coffee or tea and just make a commitment to talk it out. More engagement is better.
speaker-1 (27:54.606)
Much better, it's much better. And more grace, because I will say this, I said to my mom, I was talking about another family member, not in the Jackson side, another family member, and I said, I'm done with her. Like, that's it, you know, she's dead to me. You know what mean? And my mom was like, you can't do that. Like, you don't get to throw people away. No one gets to be dead to you. Like, as a believer, like, now listen, you can't be in relationship with someone who's abusing you.
or harm you. I'm not telling you to stay with your abuser or whatever. But if I don't like someone because we don't like to vacation the same way or because they raise their kids a little differently than I do or they're helicopter parent and I'm hands off or whatever or certain things, certain triggers that I'm just like, eh, you know what, I don't like that. And my mom's like, cannot just, people are gonna be who they're gonna be.
You just have to give them grace. You just have to love on them. You just have to humble yourself, really. And that was a really hard pill to swallow because it's so easy to just say, I'm out. Like, I don't need this. And surround yourself with the echo chamber of, know, Minnie Kelly's. But how is that gonna make me a better Christian? You know what I mean?
The only people I surround myself with are people who just yes and agree. You know, like it's not, I can't mature that way. I can't grow that way. I can't learn that way. There's no friction. You know what I mean? And growth comes with friction. Like exactly what you were saying, Edward. Like that, the fist fight, right, is what allows you to kind of appreciate the other person a little bit more.
speaker-0 (29:47.98)
Well, and I think I think also the in the Christian context, the example that Christ gave us is that he came to earth. He shared his love and they gave his life for a race of people. I'm talking about the human race, not a particular race of people for a race of people who rejected him. Look at the experience that he went through right before he was crucified. Right. The big party. Here's the king. And then
The next week they're spitting on him and beating him and then lying about him and then a corrupt government murders him and he's down for it because of his love for us. Right? Okay. So out of obedience, we should sort of take it on the chin that cousin, whoever hurt our feelings and give them the grace that Jesus gave us and,
Not because she deserves it and with all due respect, Kelly, not because it makes us a better person, but because God demands this of us. This is as a matter of obedience.
An example, hey, I didn't have to do this for you. I didn't deserve what I had to go through for you. I went through it for you. Now you do it to others.
speaker-1 (31:12.194)
Yeah.
speaker-2 (31:13.358)
So, you I'm gonna shift us a little bit to some questions that folks have asked. Kelly, you named the fact that everybody on this screen right now is like all about conflict. Like sign me up, I want to get into it. I can't imagine that every other person in your family dynamic feels that same way. On the group chat, I'm sure there are some people just watching the things go by like these two are at it again.
So if you do so firmly believe that you have to be engaged in the conflict in order to grow, how have you invited family members who might just have different personalities, who might have different gifts that they bring that aren't so head on facing the conflict? How have you invited them to engage in this kind of growth around these differences with you?
speaker-1 (32:03.182)
If I'm honest, I've probably failed at that. I probably have not been very good at that. It is easy for me to be in conversation with Edward because our personalities are very similar. It's not hard for me to be in conversation with Elizabeth. I absolutely love Elizabeth, his wife, but I know that she is conflict averse. And because she's conflict averse, I think I have probably been more of a coward in...
having harder conversations with her because I don't want to make her uncomfortable. And because I love her, but also because I don't want to make her uncomfortable. And Nathaniel, husband as well, is conflict diverse. He does not, he buries a lot of things. I had to put his business out there. And because I know that, I feel like,
I feel like I have to push him a lot more than I want to to have those conversations. you know, did you call your dad? Did you call your brother? Did you tell him this? Did you tell him that? You know, like, I need to be better at doing those things too. So yeah, it's easy for me to call, you know, Edward. It's easy for me to talk to Josh, easy for me to talk to Rachel or Junaid. they're all, all of y'all have your own extroverted.
Tendencies. It's harder to talk to people that are, that you know are sensitive or more conflict diverse for me. And I, and maybe that's not a good thing. I don't, I don't know, Edward, what would you say?
speaker-0 (33:47.406)
So I've used this example with a lot of topics. There was a bad Tom Cruise movie called The Last Samurai.
speaker-2 (34:00.245)
yeah!
speaker-1 (34:01.016)
This too.
speaker-0 (34:02.254)
It was terrible, right. And wonderful, all the same. apologies to anyone I ruined the movie for, in the one of the Japanese characters in the movie, the main samurai guy, you see him examining the cherry blossoms all through the movie. And in the last scene of the movie, when he's mortally wounded and dying, he looks up.
to the cherry blossoms and he said, now I understand. They're all perfect.
speaker-0 (34:37.164)
with regard to family members who have a different way of operating, the answer is they're all perfect, right? Those people aren't wrong. Those people are just different from you. And so the example of my lovely wife, who's conflict diverse, she's not wrong, right? She's my Abigail. She is keeping me out of trouble. And so the discipline for me is to listen to the people who have different perspectives and
sometimes actually do what they say because they're right. They're all perfect. Like the virtuous feature of democracy is that it cools one person's opinion in the pool of everyone else's in the hope that together we can all come up with one thing whether it does or not like that. That's a whole nother conversation. But the it's
It's all of us being put in one big get along shirt. So with regard to other people, what's the best way to integrate them into this conversation? The best way is to start to listen to them.
speaker-2 (35:51.982)
For either of you, has your relationship caused you to be more curious about something that you would say you still don't agree about?
speaker-1 (36:01.324)
Get! And Edward knows. So recently I got my own thing, which is my license to carry. Edward, I think his whole family are big, they're big hunters. They're big into guns. And I have always been gun-averse. But I never sort of grappled.
with why other than to be like, guns are bad, guns are bad, guns kill people, yada, yada, yada. Like I didn't, and that's not a bad stance, but I didn't, I never dug a little bit deeper into like, well, have you ever like shot a gun? Have you ever like, you know, thought about taking a class? and so, and I've gone shooting once before, like early in my marriage with Nathaniel, which I probably did more because, know.
I was early in my marriage and I did a lot of foolish things early in my marriage. But like, last year I took a gun safety course and the first people I wanted to tell outside of Nathaniel was my father-in-law and Edward and Josh. Because I know how big they are into guns and very supportive. Edward said, all right, you gotta go to the range. You gotta practice. can't just put the...
put the license in your wallet and be done with it. Like, you know, like it's not just about the information you have to practice. And, and he's not wrong about that, but it was a huge leap for me to do that. I still don't really want guns in my house. I still don't feel comfortable around a gun. I will always have a deep respect. And Edward does too, his whole family. mean, his boys have been hunting for years and
I admire what he did with them because I have not done that with my kids is to give them a deep, healthy respect for gun ownership. I've always been too timid to do that because I'm always like, something could go wrong, something could happen. And I would say I've not, it's not a 180 because I'm not like about to sign up for the NRA or whatever, but like, I do feel like, okay, I get it. I get it.
speaker-1 (38:19.886)
and I'm probably never gonna feel comfortable, but I get the appreciation they have for guns. I get the utility of having a gun in certain circumstances. And I never thought I would. And this is someone who's got two guns on the cover of their book. know what I mean? Like, I never thought, people think that I'm much more gun toting than I really am, but I'm a big punk when it comes to like.
gun ownership, but Edward and my father-in-law, my brother-in-law, and my husband have changed my perspective in ways that I did not think was possible.
speaker-2 (39:02.496)
Edward, what about you? Is there anything that has caused you about your relationship with Kelly that's caused you to be more curious about something, even if you didn't change your mind?
speaker-0 (39:11.468)
Yeah, absolutely. I take it as fact because I know, I know Kelly's very smart. And if she figured, if she has an idea.
that I disagree with. It's probably because there's something that I don't understand. And so being in contact with Kelly has convicted me to really try to understand why certain people think certain things. And it's caused like a fundamental
like shift in the underpinning of my political beliefs. And while my positions haven't changed, what I acknowledge is that everybody's right sometimes. That at a particular moment in history, one person or another may prefer one outcome or another.
But at another point in history, that would be the wrong outcome. That applying that you can't have a single principle, a single political principle, religious principle, yes, but a single political principle that is right all the time. And so I'm much more patient and flexible when I hear people say something that sounds strange to me.
speaker-2 (40:50.378)
I am grateful for your witness, for your willingness to come in and just share a little bit to live process what conflict looks like in your relationship. This is an example of, I don't know, what it looks like to be Jesus in families as a witness to the world. So I'm grateful for you guys.
speaker-1 (41:10.094)
Scott here.
speaker-0 (41:11.128)
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