BSA Ep. 4 - 5 Theologies of Evil - Evaluation Time!
⭐ In this thought-provoking Beyond Simple Answers (Theology Lab) episode, Scott, Greg, and Kristin dive deep into one of the most enduring questions in Christian theology: the problem of evil. Through an engaging and honest conversation, they explore four major theological frameworks—protest theodicy, process theology, person-making theodicy, and liberation theology—and reflect on how each shapes faith, doubt, and lived experience. Kristin shares why protest theodicy resonates so personally, framing faith as an ongoing, honest dialogue with God marked by lament, questioning, and deep trust. Scott and Greg affirm its biblical roots while wrestling with the emotional and spiritual weight of living in constant protest.
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Description
⭐ In this episode, Scott, Greg, and Kristin explore the problem of evil through four major Christian frameworks: protest theodicy, process theology, person-making theodicy, and liberation theology. From questioning God in seasons of suffering to rethinking divine power and human responsibility, the conversation is both deeply personal and intellectually engaging. Kristin reflects on the role of protest and lament, Greg unpacks the logic of process theology, and Scott highlights the biblical roots of wrestling with God. Together, they ask: How should Christians respond to suffering—and what does it mean to trust God in a broken world?
Resources
📚 Check out Kristin’s book, We Mend With Gold!
Find a local bookseller: https://tinyurl.com/MendwithgoldLocal
Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/MendWithGold
Generated Transcript
Scott Rice (11:57)
Let’s now move our conversation to what are you drawn to in these models? And kind of as we go through, like, hey, this one's definitely ⁓ one of my favorites. ⁓ And then what do you see as things that you might wanna distance yourself from as well or things you find less satisfying in these views? Okay, let's start with protest theodicy. ⁓
and kind of, you know, keep, we can keep the of the classical view in mind as we go through, but on protest the Odyssey, Kristen, would you get us, get us started with your thoughts on that?
Kristin T. Lee (12:26)
Yeah, protest theodicy is really appealing to me because I think in at least one form of it, it is one that truly wants to preserve the goodness of God. And that is almost why we protest because
We want to trust in a God who is all loving and all goodness, but what we see in the world doesn't match that. And so we bring that to God and we say, this is not right and this is not who you are. So what's going on and why are you not intervening? ⁓ And so it almost requires this trust in God as truly good. ⁓ And it requires us to name the evil in the world as well.
and not dial it down as Greg mentioned about the person making The Odyssey. So that one really appeals to me as someone who is constantly contentious and questioning.
Scott Rice (13:22)
I will admit, I do feel like you fit very well into this one, Kristen, like from what I know of you. And it's, me, is definitely the most shocking of the ones here, just like first glance, right? Whoa, that's like a primary way. That's its own model of reckoning with the problem of evil. ⁓ So, but I think you've articulated, it does not mean, it does not have to mean loss of faith, right? It is definitely like a theology on the margins,
of risk in the sense that like, it means like,
like seeing and responding to the really troubling things, but in an appropriate way, right?
comes out of a deep sense of God's, of the justice is not what it should be in the world. And it's kind of like a theology of lament has gotta be a theology of protest in a certain way, right?
Greg Fung (14:07)
It requires a tremendous amount of faith to exercise protest the Odyssey versus
to a different God historically or just walking away altogether. I mean, maybe it requires the most faith. I'm not sure, there's a strong foundation that it requires.
Scott Rice (14:27)
our brief evaluation of protest theology
where does this theodicy stand for you? How drawn to it are you? What's its place in Christian life?
Kristin T. Lee (14:38)
I think for me it's very helpful. I don't think I've ever put it into words this way before reading about it in Migliori, but ⁓ it's kind of how I move through life as a Christian. Like I'm constantly being like, God, why? And why, yeah, why is there so much suffering and pain and what are you doing about it? ⁓ So I think it's natural to me, the most natural to me probably.
Scott Rice (15:03)
Greg, how about you?
Greg Fung (15:04)
You know, emotionally, I think it's super helpful ⁓ for me. I'm not the world's most emotional person, so I probably don't ⁓ move in this direction as much as I could and probably should. I feel like there are some depths here that I probably could explore more.
Scott Rice (15:27)
I think for me, protest theodicy is deeply important. I think it's deeply biblical. You see it coming out of the prophets. They are definitely exercising some kind of protest theodicy. ⁓ I think those who are expressing this, it's our job to give ear to them and
what is that pain and suffering? There's something about the gospel that would draw us to that. ⁓ I think there's probably a question about how long can we live healthy in a kind of protest theodicy?
I say that just with like the most careful of qualifications because,
I don't want to say that in any way that would overlook when this is coming out of genuine suffering and evil. ⁓ Like that, that's super important. That needs to be attended to.
Please.
Kristin T. Lee (16:12)
You're saying it in a very, ⁓ kind of John, you're saying
it in a very kind way, but ⁓ as someone who lives that way, I can also attest it is an exhausting way to live sometimes. So I do take what you just said to heart in the sense that maybe we need to step out of that relationship with God every now and then of that protesting stance.
Scott Rice (16:34)
I appreciate you saying that in one sense. And I'm also like, I'm not experiencing deep suffering right now. You I went through a training today in which that had to do with like, know, responding to if kind of, if ⁓ ice shows up within your faith community, how do you respond around that? And I'm seeing people of faith whose communities are deeply affected by that. And
would not be right, right? For me to be asking them, hey, hey, know, show your protest theodicy here, express that a little bit, but make sure you don't go too far. Do you know what I mean? Like that would be, I would be speaking from the wrong place on that. So I don't know, I'm just trying to keep that voice right there in front of me. Yeah.
Kristin T. Lee (17:14)
Yeah.
Scott Rice (17:19)
let's go to, okay, let's go to process theodicy.
Where does Process the Odyssey stand to you? What do you like about it? What questions do you have around it?
Greg Fung (17:29)
Intellectually, I love process the Odyssey as a way to approach it because I feel like it's the easiest one for me to wrap my head around. It's simply, we've misunderstood God's power. If I would really boil it down. And I think even as a parent, the way parenting philosophies have changed, we saw parenting, you know, 80 years ago was much more about
You make your kids do something and you spank them if they don't behave. And now we've kind of as a culture moved to a place of like, oh, you want to love them and non-coercively help them along a certain path, even if it means that they fall down and skin their knees sometimes. And so that like intuitively makes sense. And I feel like a similar motion is happening here in process theodicy where it's like, oh, we thought we thought God was sort of like a Roman emperor or a Persian.
king that had all this infinite power and could just do whatever they wanted. But in fact, maybe power looks more like, I mean, to jump to the end of story, like more like Jesus or more like a good parent in today's culture versus the sort of coercive power. So that's for me intellectually. And I mean, there's some downsides to this, but intellectually, I find that very, very satisfying. So I live here a lot in my, at least in my mind.
Scott Rice (18:49)
Any any doubts or questions for you around process theology? Greg our process theologian? If I if I could say so
Greg Fung (18:54)
Like
a tiny process of the illusion. ⁓
I'd say the downside coming from a world where my theology was more of a like, omnipotent, God calls all the shots sort of world. There's a loss of a certain sense of certainty. So it was comforting to feel like, this is all in God's plan and this is exactly how it was meant to go. And ⁓ that's very comforting. And so to lose that is a little destabilizing, which is like, ⁓ God, I either can't
chooses not to intervene in ways that I wish he would and God consistently will not do this as a rule with like, you know, very very very rare exceptions ⁓ It feels it's yeah, it feels a little destabilizing. So you have to live with that
Kristin T. Lee (19:48)
Yeah, I think this was a new concept to me, ⁓ for sure. And I think the appealing part is where it says the quote from Migliori is, persuasion is the only way one power can influence another without violating the freedom of the other. And I was like, that actually is very, there's a lot of food for thought there. And I like that. And I still need to think about it more because it's really rich. ⁓
But I do think for me, what Greg mentioned at the end there about how it almost feels like it's limiting God's power in a way that I'm, that troubles me. Not that I'm totally against that, but ⁓ I think process theologians would say God can't stop the Holocaust or it doesn't have the power to stop certain things. And that's where I'm confused.
Scott Rice (20:42)
We're definitely, I mean, this is why in some ways, I process theology has had such an interesting life, even within theological circles, but I know pastors who would consider themselves very deeply informed by this, maybe even more so kind of open theology. think process can be like, some ways, it's kind of like academic theologians talk about it, and then within church theological circles, just for language. If you're like, wanna go find a book on this, go look for something in open and relational theology.
Yeah, I, man, on this one, I am just always kind of back and forth. I love the critiques of process and open theology against kind of the traditional classical idea of how God relates to the world, but I'm not a process theologian. Like, I think that they're right. talk about, and the way that God is understood as relational and with us.
prayer really, really matters, right? Like you could say something to God and God may respond and move based upon your prayer. Process theology, open theology says that so well. ⁓ I always feel like in these debates, if someone's like advancing a kind of a process or open view, I find myself more
have a traditional classical idea of God and then vice versa.
So it is that question of power.
But then he raises that, Kristen, to go with your example, right? It's why we're having these conversations, because it's like, I would like to think that God could have prevented these great evils, because I would really like to believe that God will, with our cooperation, ⁓ ultimately bring an end to evil as we know it. And yet, God hasn't done that, right? So we're like, that's why we're still in the thick of this intense conversation.
⁓ All right, anyone want to rate process theology and where it stands for them love it like it dislike it
Greg Fung (22:32)
I do like it a lot. It's high on my list.
Scott Rice (22:35)
Yeah.
Kristin T. Lee (22:36)
Yeah, think I find it helpful to think about, but I don't know if that's where I would put my eggs in the proverbial basket.
Scott Rice (22:43)
Yeah.
All right. Person making theodicy. Maybe we can try to move this one just a little bit quicker. I'll just, I'll think the lead on this one, if that's okay. I just, I, this one's not high on my list. You know, I just think the way like, I don't know if it's really well-eclipped to deal with horrendous evil. I'll just say what I think it has going for it. I remember listening to a Bible project series about trees a few years ago and this idea that like, every time a tree shows up in the Bible, it has to do with like,
deep formation, like trees are these ways of like things we navigate by that are meant to like, you know, they can tempt, they can provide sources of wisdom, but they're all about human growth. And that's clearly an aspect of faith is growth and maturity. It's got that going for it, but it's got some big questions for me that I just am like, ⁓ no thanks. So thumbs down. Anyone else want to comment here?
Kristin T. Lee (23:34)
I'm right with you there. I agree that it can be personally helpful as we think about how we personally respond to evil, but the vast evil in this world is too much for it to carry at all.
Greg Fung (23:45)
As I guess I've put myself in the process theodicy corner now process theodicy and person making theodicy are connected. So I have to defend person making theodicy a little bit in the sense that right God's non coercive love part. think part of that is by letting kids skin their knee. So it's it.
inevitably leads into person-making theodicy. So that is a form of God's love. That is why God either can't or won't do what God, we want God to do with God's power or potential for power. ⁓ And the response is, well, person-making theodicy. So I think they're tied and I think there's some truth to it. I mean, we see it throughout scripture. It's not just like a modern concept. It's, I mean, the idea of the redemption of Jesus is
Of sacrifice and death. mean that's it's core to the gospel. So there's there's something there obviously the huge you know Achilles heel is it does seem to Dismiss like terrible terrible things and that's that's certainly hard But I wonder if there's a lot of room in the middle where it's like well, there's a lot of stuff That's not so bad that we considered and we we feel terrible about but there are a bunch of things where
Like maybe person-making theodicy has its place. It doesn't answer everything. And certainly the most extreme thing is like for sure, like that's off the table, but maybe it does clear up some of the mess. I it forces us to still face some of the harder questions, but I'm not ready to completely dismiss it as a budding process theologian.
Scott Rice (25:20)
Mm-hmm.
This is great. think you know, the one thing is there's not that many person-making theologians I know out there but there's definitely a lot of like process and open theologians so I can but the comments are gonna be like Greg we love you. You're the best Kristen Scott boo boo you but like there's not like person-making folks are gonna be like I just don't you know, I don't even know if that's a thing Okay, ⁓ liberation theology liberation theodicy ⁓ Kristen you want to get us started with this one?
Kristin T. Lee (25:41)
You
I wonder why you chose me. I love this one as maybe you expected ⁓
Greg Fung (25:53)
you
Kristin T. Lee (25:54)
I do think it to Greg's three stool point, I do think it upholds all three legs of the stool and just like tells us we just need to participate with God in God's struggle against suffering. And so it's almost a partnership and a joining of God. it's
saying that God actually feels the same way as we do, right, towards all this evil and suffering in the world. And it invites us. It's an invitation. So I love it. And I actually didn't think Migliori's critique of it was very, I mean, he has like one sentence, which is that ⁓ it doesn't necessarily address forgiveness and reconciliation because it's too focused on defeating evil. But I don't think that's true. If you read liberation theologians, I think they're very grounded in love and forgiveness and reconciliation. So yeah.
Scott Rice (26:27)
Which is, which is what?
I'm also a fan of this one. some ways, think it, you know, because in some ways it keeps together the classical view that I am still, I still think there's essential elements to the classical view. You could say maybe it has a little bit of like conceptual tension between, you know, ⁓ in calling us to this courageous response, what's God's role, what's our role. But in some ways, you know, it at least puts a, I think it asks a very hard and important question, which is like, listen,
At end of the day, this is always more than a theoretical conversation. This is asking about how are we involved in that process? And one of the things you'll often hear a liberation theologian say, and liberation is so vast and so diverse and so developed in multi-generations right now. So this is a huge generality, but I'm looking at a book right next to me by Gutierrez, Gustavo Gutierrez, sometimes considered like the founder of liberation theology. And he'll just say like, that's not helpful to hold a book behind my head.
and he will say, like you practice your faith and then reflection comes out of that. I think he's just unpacking, right? Theology is faith seeking understanding. It's faith that's practiced, that's then seeking afterwards to understand how to reckon with the problem of evil. So in that sense, know, liberation theodicy, think is really, is a powerful word and is really, ⁓ is traditional in a lot of ways. Greg, any comments on liberation theology to close us up here?
Greg Fung (28:03)
I mean, I love it for all the reasons we've said. I don't know if this is fair, but what my critique would be is not really a theodicy. It's called action, but it doesn't really address the fundamental issues. so that to me is an Achilles heel where it's a back door probably to despair. Because if you were trying to liberate and it's not working out, where are you falling back? And if you haven't really addressed the underlying
Theological questions so that it could be a weakness,
but I love it. mean, I love it
Scott Rice (28:32)
You really are a process theologian.
You are a process theologian because the most coherent of any of these is clearly, mean, people say that the process theology gives the most cohesive answer to the problem of evil. And this is my criticism of it, right? Like it says too much. my goodness. This is the only time on this podcast I will ever say this. It does not leave enough place for mystery. It does not leave enough place for mystery. Process theology doesn't. Okay, so Greg, I didn't give you the chance to respond. I just jumped in there and.
Greg Fung (28:35)
I'm sorry.
Yeah, it's I mean, it's it's a fair comment. Uh, and what it reminds me of is it's almost and maybe maybe you could say it's an overreaction. I feel like if you look at sort of classical Calvinist responses to this, the Odyssey, they, would say air too heavily on mystery where it's like, Hey, God's all powerful and he, you know, it's, he condemned some to eternal. Perdition and we can't understand it. It's a mystery, which feels a little bit.
to me like a cop out, it's like, oh, come on, you can't pull that. And so process theology maybe is an overreaction of being like, no, no, no, no, let's unwind that and find something that actually makes sense, but then maybe take some of the mystery out. I don't know. It's interesting, but you maybe think of that sort of tension point, especially with that like classical high Calvinism, if you will.
Scott Rice (29:48)
Okay, so this episode has reached its conclusion. This is gonna be our longest episode in the whole series. We're gonna just cap this one off really quick by tying it back to episode one at the very beginning of our next episode. And then we are gonna jump into kind of its own bracketed conversation that's just gonna look at the topics of creation, faith, and suffering in the Bible, exclusively focused on the Bible. And then we wrap this up with the final episode in the series. So we'll see you all next time.
Kristin T. Lee (30:16)
Thank you, see you.
Greg Fung (30:17)
Thanks all.
