BSA Ep. 10 - Mini-Date: How Does Christianity Explain Evil?
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An unplanned Beyond Simple Answers episode. This episode followed our Q&A as it turned into a mini-debate about what theology of evil best explains the problem of evil. What do you think? How far does Christian faith go in explaining the problem of evil?
Description
In this episode of Beyond Simple Answers, hosts Scott Rice, Greg Fung, and Kristin T. Lee dive into one of Christianity’s oldest and most difficult questions: the problem of evil. Can Christian theology truly explain suffering, injustice, and pain in the world? Or does every answer eventually fall short? The conversation explores the tension between classical theodicy, protest theology, liberation theology, and process theology, as the hosts debate whether these approaches genuinely answer the intellectual challenge of evil or simply shape how believers respond to it. Greg argues that liberation and protest theology are responses rather than full theodicies, while Scott defends their power to preserve hope in God’s goodness amid suffering. Kristin raises hard questions about whether any framework can fully satisfy the human longing for answers. Along the way, the discussion wrestles with God’s power, human freedom, divine love, faith during suffering, and the hope of justice and resurrection. Drawing on themes from Job, liberation theology, and the teachings of Jesus, this episode offers a candid and nuanced Christian conversation about doubt, faith, suffering, justice, and the mystery of God’s presence in a broken world.
Resources
📚 Check out Kristin’s book, We Mend With Gold!
Find a local bookseller: https://tinyurl.com/MendwithgoldLocal
Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/MendWithGold
Generated TranscriptScott Rice (00:00)
Scott Rice (00:01)
No, let's pause there. I was going to stop and say, you know, it'd be really fun for us to like, to like hash out like whether or not protest theology and liberation theology are theories and whether they satisfy the intellect. And it's like, is it like the bonus episode? Not the book.
Greg Fung (00:17)
Ha ha!
Kristin T. Lee (00:19)
I really, I
wanna talk about this.
Scott Rice (00:22)
All right, let's just try it here. Ready? Ready? Here's the deal. I have an idea.
But we're going to offer a little bit of a time at the end to work out an issue here that I think is just like a standing tension that exists between us. And that's this. Greg, you have said more than once, and I think Kristen seems to be on board with you here.
that the liberation approach, liberation theology, its approach to evil as well as protest are not theodicies. And I just not sit well with me. But let me pause and just let you speak for a second on this. Kristen, ⁓ state where you are on this and then we'll talk about it.
Greg Fung (00:55)
I you're outnumbered, Scott.
Scott Rice (00:56)
That's fine. fine. That's just lay out why you don't think it's at the Odyssey.
Greg Fung (01:02)
All right. I'll kick us off with
classically, think theodicy answers the question of how, how can these elements coexist where it gets power, goodness, and the reality of evil. How can those three things coexist? And it tries to solve that intellectual impossibility. Whereas liberation or protest doesn't really address it as much as to say, this is my response.
Scott Rice (01:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Greg Fung (01:29)
Whatever the answer is, this is my response. So I feel like they're really answering fundamentally different questions. They're both important, but different. And so when you lump them together, my concern is that it confuses what we're really trying to address. And so there's some goodness in separating them and understanding the connection. They're deeply connected. They're deeply rooted one to the other. They're necessary, but separating them helps us know what are we really talking about in any given time.
Scott Rice (01:59)
Okay, okay. And Kristen, what then your thought here? You said at one point you feel like it's not as there as much as you like protest theodicy and liberation approach. They're not as intellectually satisfying. Can you say something to that?
Kristin T. Lee (02:06)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, so like, you know, those two, the three legged stool that Greg has mentioned, ⁓ I think person making theodicy will kind of chop off a little bit of the leg of how bad evil is, right? And then process theodicy would chop off a little bit of God's power. ⁓ But then I don't know that in order to, you know, make the stool work, but I don't know that protest theodicy and liberation theology really
do, like they're trying to have it all, right? They're trying to keep all three legs of the stool and ⁓ just say like, well, God's with us in it. ⁓ And I'm like, that's great. And I'm glad that God's with us in it, but it still doesn't like, why did God create a world that is so still full of so much suffering and evil? Like it still doesn't satisfy that.
Scott Rice (02:42)
Mmm. ⁓
Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, those are fair enough. But like, just because the theory, just because it doesn't fulfill all the components of the different theory, doesn't mean that it's, think, not itself a coherent, not a coherent, but I think like the most viable. And like, here's what I'm trying to say here, is that the liberation approach, right? And I want to tie that really close to the classical approach. It does not have the internal consistency that the process view does, but
I think it lays claim to the things that are essential So like God is, you continue to affirm God's power, which is so important for thinking evil will truly be done someday. It affirms that God is with us and it affirms our call to it. It does not answer, yes, it does not answer the why question as you might want to.
and maybe our differences are just like personality and wanting, how satisfied are you with like an answer that isn't totally coherent? But those options are so important, I think, especially that notion of power in that I can hope that one day this will be no more, that I would much rather say, okay, yeah, I don't have the answer for why. And that's why protest theology is so appealing to me, because it's like, it allows me to like say that to God, why, why, why, But still holding that.
this will be no more. that would, I think, pretty clearly make it the best theory of all the theodicies, correct?
Kristin T. Lee (04:30)
I don't disagree, Scott. Like, I'm right there with you. just don't, I'm still, there's still questions.
Scott Rice (04:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg Fung (04:37)
So I would argue that there's a danger in leaning too heavily on responses when they're unanswered. Not that, you know, process theology answers these questions per se, but gives just a little bit more intellectual room to wrestle these questions.
Because when you're simply standing on response and you have these un...
unwrestled with underlying questions, it may erode the basis of that response, the level of faith and sacrifice that's required to respond sacrificially or to even protest. So for example, I agree, I think protest sits heavily on the classical.
understanding, is, which is fundamentally, it's a mystery. Joe, our discussion on job, it's a mystery. can't understand it, but there's a lot of theological underpinnings for why, like why can't we understand that? That's sort of the classical view and protest comes out of that. And that's fine. But if you remove that classical view and say, well, let's just do protest and forget the classical view. At some point you may wonder, why am I even protesting? What am I protesting? I don't remember anymore because I've lost that theological foundation. So I do think.
maybe for most folks, without some of those other pieces, you end up potentially in a secular space where I'm just responding, I'm just doing justice, but I kind of don't need or I've where God fits into this at all. And so they're tied together to me.
Scott Rice (06:12)
Okay, yep.
So like God's goodness to me is so foundational to what you've just said, as in like being able to hold out to some kind of,
even if it's a crumb of hope that God is ultimately and all the way down good, even if the evidence of the world might even lead me to a different conclusion, right? For some reason, what God has done in Jesus gives me enough faith to go on to believe that God is good.
President suffering and will someday overcome it. That's like what I've got to go on, that goodness keeps me going. And that's where I feel like the classical view is actually really helpful in that it like does not give up on the notion of God's goodness. So
so let me try to show some curiosity here So Greg obviously like, you know, you're saying like having a good reason to respond to evil like like be not being able to like lose your rationale for protesting and responding to evil is super important So I'm saying that for me, it's like holding out hope in God's goodness Tell me like what does that look like in in your understanding?
Greg Fung (07:20)
Hmm. I see. Yeah.
I don't think we disagree, per se.
Scott Rice (07:26)
I do, keep going.
Greg Fung (07:30)
However, ⁓ let me draw in a process in which is if, let's say we both agree holding out for hope of God's goodness, that's the bedrock we're standing on that allows us to say, fight for justice when it would be easier not to.
But evil and the victory, the short-term victory of evil definitely chips away at that. It's like, that true? Like, how can that be true? And that creates doubt. That definitely creates cracks in that belief on which I am standing. And for me, process theology helps me understand why that might be the case beyond the classic. So the classical view says, well, it's a mystery. We just won't know. And that's intellectually, I mean, that may...
Scott Rice (08:04)
Yeah, yeah.
Greg Fung (08:16)
That's true. I think it's true. It's also dissatisfying. And if there's any other way to say like, well, here's some hints for why that might be the case. I think process theology gives us some hints for beyond just it's a mystery why that might be. And that helps me. It helps me know that, actually God's power in history has not operated in a coercive way. And we see this certainly in Jesus, but in many historical events where say the early church was persecuted and yet takes over the Roman empire, not by coercion, but by
love and loving the least of these. Like that's a remarkable history that kind of gives us just a flash of how God's power actually operates. When we say God is omnipotent, what do we mean? Well, that's kind of maybe what we mean. That helps me at least wrap my head a little bit more around why has God allowed the universe to unravel the way it has and unfold. Why does history unfold the way it has?
Scott Rice (08:58)
Mm-hmm.
Greg Fung (09:14)
It doesn't answer, but it makes it more palatable and I can sort of live with that a little bit. So I'm holding on hope, not yes, yes, in God's goodness, but also the way in which God's power will work. And it is a non-coercive, it's sort of a subversive power that comes in love and it takes a long time, but it will prevail. and so now I can, I can stand on that version of God's love. So it is, it's, I don't disagree with you, but I do think there's this aspect where process helps me.
Stay rooted. Do we disagree?
Scott Rice (09:48)
I was going to say I don't dislike what you just said. I don't know because I like God will non coercively bring the world to its rightful end. I just ⁓ yeah, like that. I think that's a beautiful idea. think that that's I certainly think that's true. It's like how how will God what would that look like in terms of our own?
Greg Fung (09:53)
Hahaha
Scott Rice (10:18)
participation in that
for me, am I still holding out that in some ways God's going to have to kind of intervene apart from us? Cause this pure cooperation for us almost seeds too much to like how much longer evil will have to be tolerated.
So I guess in some ways it's kind of a, it's more of a, maybe it's more of a hope. It's a hope that like, yeah, I like this idea that God will work with us towards an end. I certainly feel like that's the general way that God operates with us in the world. Like God operates with us through us. But goodness, that will take so much long and there'll be so much suffering along the way that I would much rather have the resurrection of the dead and the great judgment happen sooner than later, come Lord.
And let me just, I just wanna say one thing. I think you've actually named kind of a criticism of my view that I would just say I think is right, which is like, is, you know, the evil happening in the world, suffering can like chip away at a view of God's goodness. And I've often thought to myself, like I'm being honest, you know, like the walking away from faith because of seeing the suffering of the world and just thinking like, maybe, like Luther said, like maybe there's a God, but I can't believe this God is good. Like that's always just been like, that's always landed with me. Like I'm like, I'm
a way that's like, I get that.
Like don't think I have a response to someone who experiences that, right? Like I can say, hey, God's present. And I believe God is present in the midst of our suffering, but that may just not go very far. And it's one of those times where it's like, don't, I just accept that. I don't have a whole lot to say here. As much as by, I think the miracle of faith, I do believe it's incredibly powerful that God is present in the midst of suffering. And maybe I'll just.
One little nod to like what Vivian said in a previous episode, one of our guests about like, you know, those folks who have experienced deep suffering and yet who continue to believe. There's just like a miracle of a testimony that happens there that gives me some encouragement, but I can't explain it, right? There's no like rationale that comes out of like why you continue believing when that happens, besides the fact that God is real and is helping and bringing help.
Okay, ⁓ Greg and Kristen, any other final thoughts here before we close up?
Kristin T. Lee (12:26)
I actually have so many more questions now about process theology in general, but let's cover them in further episodes.
Scott Rice (12:34)
Okay, well there we leave it and we'll have to make, I'll say this after. All right, well there we leave it and we will be back folks this summer or next fall with the next series in Beyond Simple Answers.
