BSA Ep. 6 - How One of Faith's Hardest Questions Has Changed Us
Why does God allow suffering? Is it okay if we don’t have a complete answer? In this final episode of Theology Lab's first Beyond Simple Answers, we reflect on one of Christianity’s hardest questions: why did God create a world with evil and pain? We explore different Christian responses to suffering—including protest theology, liberation theology, and process theology—and ask whether faith requires certainty. Can you wrestle with God and still trust God? Does God need to explain suffering, or is God's presence enough?
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Description
Why does God allow suffering? Is it okay if we don’t have a complete answer? In this final episode of Theology Lab's first Beyond Simple Answers, we reflect on one of Christianity’s hardest questions: why did God create a world with evil and pain? We explore different Christian responses to suffering—including protest theology, liberation theology, and process theology—and ask whether faith requires certainty. Can you wrestle with God and still trust God? Does God need to explain suffering, or is God's presence enough?
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📚 Check out Kristin’s book, We Mend With Gold!
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Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/MendWithGold
Generated TranscriptScott Rice (00:00)
Scott Rice - We are at the very end of our first series for Beyond Simple Answers, where we've been looking at the question of why did God create this world? I'm both excited that we are like wrapping up our first series. There's obviously this fun question about like, where are we going to be going next? So in this episode, we're going to be talking a little bit about what have we learned and what's important for us on this question going forward. But before we go there, I want to ask you all a question.
⁓ I was at a gathering this week, and this is on a very different topic, where I was surrounded by five other people. And where we're recording this, right, we're in New England. It's in the end of winter, not really the end, almost like the middle of end of winter. And I think it's, I wanted to say, I think that it's a horrible time of year, and I cannot wait for winter to end. And I was in this meeting with five other people, and all five of them were like, no, we really like winter. And I just thought like, ⁓ this meeting's not gonna go.
Anywhere so just before we start can we just all make sure we all agree that we're on the same page that this is a bad time of year and we can't wait for it to get better
Kristin T. Lee (01:02)
Absolutely.
Greg Fung (01:04)
You mean you don't you don't love the piles of dirty snow and slush that making impossible to park or get anywhere You're not having it
Scott Rice (01:12)
⁓ the beautiful scenery
around us. No, no, I really, really don't. So it sounds like, think that, I know that Chris and I are on the same page here, but Greg, you're not like a lover of the winter, are you?
Greg Fung (01:23)
my lover of the winter.
I wasn't anticipating this question.
was recalling a time where I made my kids an igloo in the backyard because there was so much snow and they loved it. And you can't do that in the summer. So there are some upsides to winter.
Scott Rice (01:43)
my goodness.
our final episode and this series where we've been covering this question of why did God create this world? A couple of things we've looked at, right? We looked at these kind of what are some of the basic simple answers that are set in response to why God created, especially in view of just a world that is not as it should be. We looked at the response of
God created for God's glory, God created for human partnership, and some of the ways we find those answers unsatisfying, some ways we want to nuance them.
Okay, so here's where I want us to go. So it's kind of two things to cover now. Like, as you look forward, what is, you know, drawing from our conversations or thinking about what we've talked about, what's a helpful, constructive way of addressing for you this topic of God, creation and suffering? Maybe not like a, you know, like an entire kind of explanation, but what is something that you find yourself latching onto now and saying like, this is important for me and my thinking on this topic.
Greg Fung (02:47)
want to separate those out just a little bit. I feel like they're connected and we made that connection. But I think specifically on the suffering piece.
I feel like, and I hope this isn't a cop out, but I realized that I want to approach it more from multiple dimensions, multiple sides rather than from a single side. So what I mean by that is I think it's easy to have a simple answer for when things are going poorly and I'm wrestling with that question. kind of just choose one of those theodicy type answers that we got into last time. And I stick with that. Whereas
There is something about approaching it from all four or maybe more ways. There's the, you know, the growth side, I guess that's the person theodicy, there's process, there's protest, there's liberation, and it helps it to hit all of them if you can. So I'm going to try to be a little bit more holistic in my approach.
Scott Rice (03:49)
Is there any way where you can see some of those features being important to you in like a trying time? Where it's like, hey, you might not gravitate to, you know, the protest view, but you can see like some part of your life or maybe like in like your surroundings around you and lives of others, where like one of those would come out as particularly important.
Greg Fung (04:12)
Yeah. Yeah. I I
I mean, you named it. I tend to shy away from the protest side. ⁓ I, for whatever reason, I'm much more apt to simply just grin and bear it and kind of make it through ⁓ or fight against it. But the protest side is really important.
a way in which, I think we kind of touched on this last time, there's a way in which protest and prayer are kind of connected.
And I wouldn't say I'm the best prayer in the world. And there's probably a reason that those are connected for me. And so I do think that's a growth edge. And when I don't press into the protest side, I think there's a way in which it almost separates me from God because I'm sort of doing it on my own or I'm just waiting, but I'm not actually in
and looking for God to show up in some way.
So, so yes, to your question, yes, it's important.
I'm, if you don't embrace all, all the sides of it, you miss out.
Scott Rice (05:13)
we're having theological conversations, but I'm really like kind of moved that you're thinking about this in terms of, ⁓ know, here's kind of a theory about a way of addressing and relating to evil. And you're seeing how like that has a place in your own personal spiritual life and being able to draw that in more.
Christian, how about you? What are you thinking about in terms of like, what really matters to you here and addressing this topic of creation suffering?
Kristin T. Lee (05:42)
learning about protest and liberation theodicies has been really helpful for me because I think in the past when this question comes up of why did God create the world and allow suffering and evil, there is sometimes a simple answer given of... ⁓
You just have to accept it and trust that everything will turn out OK in the end, which is, you know, a faithful response in some ways. But I think like trying to fit into the singular narrative of creation is just a gift and then not acknowledging the real deep suffering in the world can be really hard for people who are built ⁓ like me. And so it is it's been really helpful to see that that's actually like protesting can be a faithful response. Like I always thought that like wrestling with God.
was putting me in conflict with God, but then like liberation theodicy is saying, no, God is in the struggle with us. Like God honors that and wants us to be angry at evil. So that's been really helpful to know that there's so many different ways to follow Jesus and honor and trust Jesus. And trust doesn't mean just like blind acceptance. It can mean really
like having that tension within yourself too.
Greg Fung (07:01)
Yeah, you know what I especially like about that is it kind of touches on the relational side with God, whereas the sort of, it'll work out in the end, just trust God, feels a little clinical and cold to me. It's like something will happen and you don't need a relationship with God. It'll just happen versus on the protest side, you're really inviting a conversation and you're expecting, you're expecting response. mean, even
If things don't go your way, so to speak, you're still expecting some relational response, which I really, I appreciate. And I think it's super important. And it's easy for someone like me. And I think it's easy for us in our modern era and our sort of outcomes based era to be like, that doesn't matter. Let's, let's, we just want, we just want justice. And as long it happens, we're happy. But I think you really miss out. In fact, might end up in some bad,
places, if you will.
if you cut out the relational
Scott Rice (07:57)
As I'm thinking about this, what are the essentials for me in moving forward on this topic? I think there's like, one of the ways there's kind of like a motto, and then there's two.
key ideas. The motto is like,
that we as Christians, we do not have anything like a full scale explanation for why things are the way that they are. just we don't have an explanation for that. Like, we have some reasons, right? I think I think human freedom matters. I think that God wants to God doesn't want robots that says something, but it doesn't say everything to me.
about why things look the way they do. But okay, so we don't have a full-scale explanation, but we do have responses. And I think in some ways very powerful and moving responses to the problem of evil. And I think this gets me to like the two little points. And I, this is gonna sound like alliteration. It is really not, it just so happens that both of these start with like a P, but.
It's that like the two things I desperately want to hold on to, regardless of the theory I'm moving forward with, is that like, it's a good view of evil, it's got to hold that God is radically present in the midst of suffering, even though that has to involve a certain amount of mystery, but God is present in the midst of suffering. And then the other P, that was presence, the other P is, and that God has the power to overcome.
that somehow those two things can't be compromised. whether that's like a final ending to what the evil around us, or also just maybe hopes in the movement of life in our lives and in history, even when those can't be seen clearly, we can't discern those, there's still a hope that God will bring this to an end alongside and with us.
Kristin T. Lee (09:44)
Absolutely. I want to hold to those two.
Greg Fung (09:48)
I like it power and presence. Those are the two P's.
Scott Rice (09:51)
Power and presence, yes. If I was to add a third, it would intentionally not begin with a P.
Greg Fung (09:55)
You put it in Scott. I mean, preach it.
Kristin T. Lee (09:56)
you
Scott Rice (09:59)
so if those are like some of the key things that we feel like we're compelled to hold on to in wanting to look at this question, the question we're looking at in the series, ⁓ we have tried to emphasize from the beginning that our goal here is to
look at a theological vision together. We know that does not mean we're gonna end up in the same places. And I know we had some kind of fun with this, but it was interesting to see like, know, Greg leaning towards kind of this.
dimension of process theology or open theology and how that spoke to you. And I still have my own kind of questions about that. I would like to think I'm friendly towards that view, I still have my own questions about it. So like the goal here wasn't to be like, let's all make sure we get on the same page here. But we did want to do this in a way where we would be like showing that we're learning and listening to one another. here's a question. This doesn't have to be a big dramatic thing,
but I'm wondering if you could share if your thinking on this topic has changed in any way. there new questions? Is there something you're now thinking about before that you weren't?
Kristin T. Lee (11:03)
don't know if this specifically answers your question, but actually I think this whole conversation about evil in the world and learning about these different approaches has helped me understand theology as a pursuit and process more. And it's been really helpful because I think I'm seeing it as a spacious place now. Whereas before, it always felt to me like,
you're trying to find the right answer and people are just having debates about it and you're arguing about pointless things because there is no one right answer. Now I'm realizing if there is no one right answer, it's actually a gift to have all these different viewpoints. Like a polyphonic response to a very complicated question makes a lot more sense to me than a simple answer to a complicated question. And so having all these options, not that.
We're trying to choose our own God. We're not trying to create a God that's just made in the image we want, but I think nothing can fully capture God. so having these different viewpoints really helps me to understand God better in a broader way. ⁓ And it's really helpful because I think I was always taught, or at least I feel like sometimes pastors
don't introduce these complicated viewpoints to their congregations. And I wonder why, because I feel like it would actually be really helpful for people to learn that there's all these different approaches to this topic. ⁓ It's very freeing, and I'm thankful for it, and it helps me know that when I investigate other theological questions, there's probably multiple responses that can help me understand God better, and not just one.
Scott Rice (12:41)
Well, if anybody listens to this series and just thinks like, feel like theology is more accessible or even needed, like that would just be such a beautiful thing. And this is a little different, we have this, know, in one of the other series at Theology Lab, we have this conversation coming up with Matthew Potts and Miroslav Volf. And Miroslav Volf has this thing, I find he does it a lot where he'll talk about like, have all of these different debated views about a given topic. And he's like, and he'll say,
I don't know, Kristen, what this would mean to you, but he'll say like, it doesn't mean there's not a single truth on it. It's like, God knows perhaps a single truth on this, but we don't. We're not going to get to that until God makes that absolutely clear. So we're going to be working with these different views and having to interact with one another as best as we possibly can as we try to move closer to that. And I don't know, I've always felt that's like a helpful distinction that also helps me see the value of different voices on any Giffen topic.
Greg Fung (13:39)
It's almost like it gives you these different levers that are held in tension with one another. And you kind of need to understand. The more you understand the different levers, the more you can kind of keep the tension balanced, perhaps. I don't know if that's quite the right word, something like that. Like I was thinking about your comment, Scott, around sort of you have questions around process theology. ⁓
I thought, what do I have questions with? thought, actually have questions around liberation theology. Not that I disagree with it, but I have always at least grown up with and rightly so just given like, I don't know, my family's history with opposing communism, this, the sense of like, Hey, when you let social justice really take the only and primary place, like crazy things can happen. They're not good. And how do you protect against that?
And there's a way in which, like right in this framework of the theodicies that we looked at, I process theology or, and, and also protest theology become this counterbalance to liberation theology. Like you have to have all of them. Otherwise you just spin out in one direction in sort of unhelpful ways. So that is pretty eyeopening to me and helpful for me to feel like, no, no, you really have to have all these levers and.
that will save you a lot of trouble down the line.
Scott Rice (15:07)
I was reading
it was a question and answer ⁓ part of a talk that Karl Barth gave, and this was actually, and this was earlier in his life, so this is almost 90 years ago. And somebody asked a question and Barth's like, you get me wrong. And he goes, yes, maybe I'm, the person critiqued Barth for being one-sided on it. And he's like, well, maybe I am one-sided, but it's to make a really important point that we all need to hear.
And this is to me actually like something that occurred to me during our conversations. It was when we were working through that list from kind of protest down to liberation theologies. ⁓ you know, spend more time with these. think we'd be able to go through and say, here's the value of something and here's weaknesses. And then I'd be able to have respond to one another. ⁓ But there was something about like, it's important to take positions, make, to make points.
And you know, with a certain level of humility, but like, I don't wanna say this, like almost like a certain emphasis or one sidedness can be called for at times. You know, we've referenced the Migliori textbook and he has a line at the beginning of that where he says something like, theology worth its salt is almost always taken a single point and really, really driven at home, it's how you kind of remember it, is how it sticks with you.
Greg Fung (16:24)
Mm.
On a practical level day to day though, is that true
for the individual person day to day? Or is that true more for theologians who need to make their point,
how do you think about that?
Scott Rice (16:40)
I sort of certainly almost think it's how it has to be. I could be wrong about this, right? But
if somebody really is asking me, what is the gospel? It's been said in so many different ways throughout the history of the church. I'll almost always find myself coming back to say it's some kind of unconditional word of embrace and of love from God.
that is good news. And I really believe that. that, that's really meant something to me in my life. But what I will find is there are times as I'm like, especially as I'm trying to communicate that to others and teach it in a class, is that I'm like, I need to kind of like do a little more legwork to really connect how this leads to a life where you care deeply about the social needs of others and of justice.
⁓ I think they're connected. think that God's unconditional embrace and love for us has implications for how we think about justice, right? But there's probably a certain one-sidedness to this important way that I want to speak about God's unconditional embrace. And that leads me to like almost kind of need to hear somebody else who is going to come at it from a certain one-sidedness that I need to hear and be in relationship with.
Kristin T. Lee (17:50)
I see what you're asking, Greg. And I think that just even in our three of us conversation, like I think each of us personality-wise just leans towards one of these theodicies more than others, right? Or like one of them feels more natural to us. And so even if we're not theologians trying to make a point, think living it out, one of them is gonna just come more naturally. so... ⁓
I think that's why we need each other, right? Just like Scott was just saying. I think we need each other because I can learn from you, I can learn from Scott, and it can balance out my natural tendencies to go off the deep end in one direction, ⁓ which I do all the time, so yeah.
Scott Rice (18:30)
Well, Greg and Kristen, that wraps up our first series for Beyond Simple Answers.
Kristin T. Lee (18:36)
Thanks so much, Scott. can't wait to see what we dive into next.
Greg Fung (18:40)
Likewise, we learned a lot, looking forward to it. Thank you.
