Kids Ask the Best Theological Questions! Sarah Shin and Shin Maeng, The Great Waking Up
⭐ In this thoughtful and engaging episode, we sit down with author Sarah Shin to explore how we can nurture a faith in children that is curious, imaginative, and resilient. Drawing from The Great Waking Up, co-created with illustrator Shin Maeng, Sarah invites us to reimagine how kids encounter big theological ideas like resurrection, hope, and the character of God. Together, we discuss why children naturally experience faith through story and wonder rather than doctrine—and how parents, caregivers, and faith leaders can support that process. What happens when kids ask hard questions about Jesus, death, or suffering? And how can those questions become the foundation for a deeper, lasting faith rather than something to fear? This conversation offers practical wisdom and fresh insight for anyone passionate about spiritual formation, parenting, and raising children who can thoughtfully and courageously engage their faith as they grow. When Kids Ask “Why Did Jesus Die?”—What Do You Say?
Check out their book here! 📚 The Great Waking Up, Sarah Shin and Shin Maeng
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Description
⭐ In this thoughtful and engaging episode, we sit down with author Sarah Shin to explore how we can nurture a faith in children that is curious, imaginative, and resilient. Drawing from The Great Waking Up, co-created with illustrator Shin Maeng, Sarah invites us to reimagine how kids encounter big theological ideas like resurrection, hope, and the character of God. Together, we discuss why children naturally experience faith through story and wonder rather than doctrine—and how parents, caregivers, and faith leaders can support that process. What happens when kids ask hard questions about Jesus, death, or suffering? And how can those questions become the foundation for a deeper, lasting faith rather than something to fear? This conversation offers practical wisdom and fresh insight for anyone passionate about spiritual formation, parenting, and raising children who can thoughtfully and courageously engage their faith as they grow. When Kids Ask “Why Did Jesus Die?”—What Do You Say?
Resources
📚 The Great Waking Up, Sarah Shin and Shin Maeng
Generated Transcript
Scott Rice (00:00)
So this interview is gonna bring together, we're gonna be looking at Sarah's new book, and then we're gonna be focusing on this question about what does it look like?
to help form kids now and preparing them for questions that they'll be coming across in the future. So here's the, here's I think the key question that we're gonna be looking at. That's gonna kind of underlie all of our conversation. How do we form children whose faith is curious, imaginative and resilient enough to wrestle honestly with God as they continue to grow? I'm just gonna read it one more time, because I think it's so important. How do we form children whose faith is curious, imaginative and resilient enough
who wrestle honestly with God as they continue to grow.
All right, so let's get, and let's just see where this conversation goes. Sarah, let me get started with this question here. ⁓ The phrase, the book is called The Great Waking Up. And I love that, it's such a poetic phrase for resurrection. And I'm kind of wondering, why did you choose that phrase? Like, what does that phrase possibly capture that resurrection sometimes doesn't capture for children?
Sarah Shin (01:08)
I this phrase because I thought it helps communicate something in a non-abstract way.
The language of falling asleep has been used to describe those who have passed ⁓ that are Christian and awaiting. But what they're waiting is not just to float up to heaven when we die. ⁓ And to your right, when you were surprised by hope, his beginning line is, most Christians or Western Christians think that heaven is a place you float to when you die. Little do they know how unbiblical that idea is. And so the idea of the great waking up is actually that death is a kind of sleep. It's a painful sleep when the parting
but that there is a difference at the end. And that's it's it's in fleshed bodily waking up and meeting ⁓ the Lord Jesus coming back. And so I think the idea was how do we communicate this in a way that takes it from abstract land into something kids can understand.
Becca Wickham (02:03)
And while thinking about how kids actually are able to learn and understand God and Jesus, you we often talk about teaching theology and adults think about concepts and doctrines, but children don't think about it that way. They ⁓ encounter faith through stories and through imagination and through emotion. So how do you think that children actually learn theology? How does this book help?
Sarah Shin (02:30)
Well, here's my best attempt because I'm like, you have three kids, I have one. And we're over thinking like, you know, a substantial like kids ministry. I think thinking about how do we take faith and theology or knowledge about God from the abstract.
to things that feel concrete, feel really important, especially for the early years. It was when my friend is a child psychologist and her kid who normally only likes books about trucks and dinosaurs, he basically grabs these two and he's like, these are the same kinds. And then he asks her to read this over and over again. And so I was like, why do you think he likes it? Because she's like, he has a special attachment to it. And she's like, well, it's making him ask me questions that I don't always have the answers to.
⁓ But the pictures, like the stigmata that you can see, the picture of Jesus, there's so many images that help him kind of...
enter into the story, which was the hope. know, so I think, I think what children ⁓ to learn theology is not abstract and actually connects with everyday life, giving them as much accessible language, both in picture and words feels really important. ⁓ If I can be like a little, it's going to relate, but if I can be a little bit abstract, there's like two images I want to think about. One is like about ⁓
Like a picture frame?
Sometimes when we talk about theology, we can almost be like, okay, here's a picture, but the reality is our world, when we talk about truth, whether we're talking about a view of the world where in secular environments, people use a materialistic view. It's not engaging God ⁓ in philosophy and theology speak, they call it the eminent frame. In this eminent frame, it's just more like what you can see, what science can describe. In that, God's not really a player, it's just humans at all.
And when kids are getting rules at school, like this is what you do to be good. This is how you behave well That's all assuming like a certain window a certain picture and I think for us to talk about theology with kids We're talking about more than just a material view like picture frame. We're talking about a God that's beyond the picture frame But he's entering into it and I think there's something about resurrection that really isn't just you know, the material world That's really powerful. So I think when we tell stories both from
the picture books that we're reading to kids, but also when we talk about how ⁓ have we seen God move in our lives, what do we pray for? How does he answer prayer? That starts to teach theology, that starts to teach trust, right? Theology should lead to doxology, even for a five-year-old. And so if we're actually teaching theology to children about a God that's worthy of trust, a God ⁓ whose character, whose trustworthiness actually can, we can... ⁓
we can lean upon that it's trust with and that will last our stories from real life and our stories that we tell from scripture really matter. And I think there's a way to break beyond just a frame of this. This is our world containing like a material. ⁓ Yeah, sort of frame that doesn't really involve God. I think that the second. ⁓
image I might share and just testing it out is, so I think about like a really leafy bush, you know, that's close to the ground and there's like the leaves and the flowers you can see. There's the branches behind the leaves that you can't see and then there's like the roots beneath the ground and sometimes if we try to just teach like kind of abstract principles or just ground rules, it's like the the wee branches behind the leaves, but they can kind of glaze over. They might, yeah these are rules, but I don't really get how that really
Becca Wickham (06:01)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Shin (06:16)
you know, connect some, or maybe they can give the Sunday school answer, but then longer term as they live through life. ⁓
Becca Wickham (06:21)
you
Sarah Shin (06:24)
like, you know, they're going to start questioning things like, why do I trust these branches? But I feel like the leaves and the flowers are these stories about God moving in the everyday life, about ⁓ prayers that are answered, about these stories, because we have no problem talking about God parting the waters for the Israelites. You know, we have no problem talking about Daniel and his friends and the burning furnace, you know. And so I think actually that that call to remember is repeated throughout scripture. So I think if we can actually give them
stories that are like the leaves and flowers, those are going to stick with them. And so as then they start to look beyond the things that are immediately apparent and capture a child's view, they're going to start to then understand a little bit more that there's these stories of God's faithfulness that undergird their exploration of what's underneath all that. So that's my opinion. I don't know what you think, Becca, because you work with so many children. I was like, about what kind of answers would I give to these wonderful questions? What are your
Becca Wickham (07:16)
You
Sarah Shin (07:24)
thoughts.
Becca Wickham (07:25)
Yeah, well, I really love the illustration of like the sort of the bush and the branches and the roots and the flowers and the leaves. That captures my imagination, I think. Because yes, the stories and the examples and the things where you say, oh yeah, we prayed for this person and this happened or this happened in my life today, things we stare at around the dinner table. I like those are the flowers and the leaves, but...
making sure that they do have that foundation, that the branches are there, that they can lean on, ⁓ I think is really the key. ⁓ And it can be easy to just tell the stories. Like you said, know, have Daniel and the lion's den or, you know, all of the Bible stories, right? But if you don't have the actual, like, God is there, God loves me, you know, like, I'm able to question God, as you said at the beginning, you know, with the story and the illustrations, just almost beg.
beg kids to question and ask and be able to engage with their caregiver, right, with their parent, ⁓ and just make those conversations keep going.
Scott Rice (08:30)
All right, so here's what we're gonna do now. We're gonna take a break from the interview questions. We're gonna do a really fun interlude here. We're gonna do this a couple times during the interview. We're gonna look at questions that kids ask adults about God and faith. So we have a big list here. Sarah's gonna take point first and Sarah's gonna ask Becca and I three questions. Becca and I only have 10 seconds each to answer and then time is up. We'll do this a couple times. All right, Sarah, get us going. You pick the questions.
Sarah Shin (08:57)
Okay, do animals go to heaven?
Scott Rice (09:01)
Becca, you go first.
Becca Wickham (09:03)
⁓
think that heaven is a place where it's like a new earth. so some animals or most animals, there will be animals in heaven. Yes.
Sarah Shin (09:14)
Okay?
Scott Rice (09:16)
Okay, good. I'm going my time's up right all right 10 seconds I'm back I'm glad you went first because I was just gonna be like I don't know I don't know but but you know what Jesus is the Lamb of God so of course there are animals in heaven
Sarah Shin (09:28)
why can't I see God? Why is he invisible?
Scott Rice (09:33)
Okay, I think we can see God in the bread and the wine and if we can't see God, it's because God is so humble that we can't see God and made all this world for us. I think my time's up.
Sarah Shin (09:43)
You
Yeah
Becca Wickham (09:49)
⁓
I think that we can see God in other people, in their love and in their actions, but God is just bigger than something that we can see. He's different from anything that we can see.
Scott Rice (10:00)
So we're saying to children, reject the premise of the question, children. do think that kids take his love when you say that.
Sarah Shin (10:00)
I
You
So,
thank
my. Okay. How does God hear everyone praying when everyone's praying and talking at once? How does he hear everything?
Becca Wickham (10:20)
I have no idea. I've wondered this also.
Scott Rice (10:24)
⁓ God is God is God is a Trinity. So God is God is God is multiplicity and diversity in God's own self So God can so God can hear lots of things all at once that that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Okay, good good good. All right. All right friends. Well that that wraps up interlude number one We're going right back to the interview. Is that okay Sarah? Are you ready? All right, I think
Becca Wickham (10:36)
in all different languages.
Sarah Shin (10:49)
Okay, yes, yeah.
Becca Wickham (10:53)
So Sarah, what kinds of questions do you hope that your books help children feel permission to ask or feel encouraged to ask ⁓ about Jesus, about the cross, about the resurrection?
Sarah Shin (11:06)
I hope they feel freedom to ask any question and that's going to make parents sweat a little. I think part of it is like, ⁓ I don't think faith should be like, have cookie cutter pat answers. Like sometimes faith gets you to the point of, don't know. And actually the parent or caregiver that's responding to a kid's really good questions for them to say, I love that you're asking questions. Like part of faith is actually asking questions about a God who's good.
Becca Wickham (11:32)
you
Sarah Shin (11:35)
and powerful and also mysterious and I'm gonna try my best to answer them. you know, it's one of the characters in this book, it's the mom, when Jesus is about to die on the cross and when he does, two different times she says, I don't know, cause the girl's like, I don't get it. There are faces that you see the sorrow, you see the disappointment because they're like, wait, the Messiah, the deliverer is supposed to bring about like the great waking up, but he's dying. Like, how does this work? know? ⁓
Becca Wickham (11:50)
you
Sarah Shin (12:03)
So I hope they ask everything. I hope they see things in the pictures and they're like, what is that? Tell me about that. There's so many Easter eggs hidden. And it's intentionally made that way with a helpful grid at the back, so that you can be like, where is this in the Bible? It doesn't matter how long you've been a Christian or not. yeah, it's funny. ⁓ My doctoral work was on the atonement about how Jesus's death on the cross reconciles us to God. ⁓ And my child, for like a year and a half,
every day, not knowing what I did. I don't think she even knew the word like PhD or doctoral studies or anything. She would ask like, why did Jesus die on a cross? Like every day. And I was like, this is God's humor. You know, I'm like, I was not the one doing this. I was just learning about the cross in Sunday school. And, you know, and she would ask me every day, I would answer her and would say, hey, you know, you learn about sin, about things that we do wrong, as well as things that are wrong in the world. make
really grieved and upset and actually separates us from God. And somehow when Jesus dies on a cross, it actually pays the debt, ⁓ the cost of us having that great distance and he crosses it. gives us relationship and life with him. And so I would say these answers, right? And she would answer again the next day. And initially I was like, am I like not doing a good job? Is this too abstract? know, cause I'm like, my God, I'm failing as a theologian. My kid keeps asking me the same questions. I would say like he congressed sin and death.
know, he conquered the devil. And at some point I realized actually she's being a really good theologian, right, as a five-six year old because, you know, in the end why Jesus's death on the cross reconciles us to God is a mystery. You can reach for all the kind of rationalized answers you can, but we only know that it does because scripture tells us, right, because Jesus says like, hey, I'm going to be a ransom for many, right. At the end there's a point where
The gospel is a New Testament, it attests to the power of the cross and the resurrection, reconciling us back to God. But how that works, we only know because it's been revealed to us. We can't explain it scientifically. There is a mystery behind it. There's a reason why ⁓ philosophers and theologians like Soren Kierkegaard, he was like, I don't get the near sacrifice of Isaac. He revisited the same. What if it was like this? Or what if it happened like this? And he's like, this is not rationality.
There's something about this that is almost irrational. It's mystery. And I come to the edge of everything that I can say that I can almost rationally explain, but still I trust this God. And so for me, the irony is every day I was asked, why did Jesus die on the cross? And now, like, you know, now my kid's asking, what's heaven gonna be like? You know, is heaven...
Are we gonna go up there? Is heaven down here? And these are the kind of, and I'm so glad because I'm like, okay, well, here's some ways to think about it. that's a really good question. But I hope that she continues to ask these questions because I think the moment we tell them you can't ask certain questions, that part of their mind and their heart that actually should be connected to fate starts to close off. It starts to die or just kind of go to sleep. But actually I hope that nothing that I give to my kid
actually needs to be discarded later. There's a difference between accessible faith to a child versus ⁓ reductionistic or simplified so much that actually it takes out the kernel of like, it is faith. There's something we can't see, something that we trust. And actually we trust that this God that came, died on a cross, was resurrected, it promises to be with us through his spirit, that he's speaking to us, that he is with us.
and in that they don't ever sacrifice mystery. So I'm hoping that, and that might up the game for caregivers and parents, but you know what? I hope your kid asks you questions that make you sweat. I hope your kid asks you questions that you're like, I do not know the answer. Let me get back to you. And I think that's great. I think that's such a wonderful witness for parents to say, that's such a good question. I want to be able to discuss this well. Can we talk about this later over dinner or bedtime? I mean,
Becca Wickham (16:06)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Shin (16:21)
My friend, the child psychologist I talked about, like, she was like, had some words to say, please, I need to go to sleep. You're asking me many questions. I don't know all the answers. I think that's wonderful. I mean, that made me smile. Like for me, hearing that, I just like, okay, goal accomplished. If you can have those kinds of conversations with a child that you're caring for, I think it's a win.
Scott Rice (16:28)
⁓
that it almost sounds like you're succeeding if your kid keeps asking the questions. I mean, I felt that all the time where my kids will ask me a question and I'll think, all right, how can I, this has gotta be clear, this has gotta be really short. And then I deliver, I do my best job. And they're asking me about something else, it has nothing to do with God or theology or faith. And I'm like, ⁓ well, lost that one.
Sarah Shin (16:51)
I am.
the
Scott Rice (17:09)
But
if they keep asking that, maybe that is a sign that like, if they keep asking those questions, maybe that is a sign that this is kind of how it should be, that you're jogging the imagination of these children.
Becca Wickham (17:13)
you
Sarah Shin (17:15)
Yeah.
I hope so, because I think I realized my kid knows my answers, but she also just wants to know. And I think there's a lot of things that we don't know, right, that we trust in. And I think when faith is presented a certainty of like, you can prove everything, we run into circumstances in life where you can't prove everything, right? Kids will run into situations where they are bullied, where they lose someone precious.
We are seeing all kinds of things happening in the world that don't make sense. There is evil. And I'm not interested in rationalizing evil. Evil is unrationalizable. It should not be. And so I don't want to take away that sense of God is good, and yet there's so much in this world that doesn't make sense. I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of questions I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven. I hope you do too.
I think that might be one of the most wonderful ways to set them up for later faith because I did college student ministry, college postgraduate. I got the ones that were given cookie cutter answers and they weren't good enough. So when they're 18 and they enter uni and they're about to abandon their faith, it's because they were given at times answers that felt so solid, so impenetrable, but life circumstances showed that that wasn't good enough.
Becca Wickham (18:16)
Hmm.
Sarah Shin (18:39)
I'm not interested in having them deconstruct their faith later when they're adults. I want them to have sure building blocks now.
Becca Wickham (18:47)
All right. And we are back with interlude number two with more questions from kids. And I am going to ask Scott to go first for this first question. Where is Jesus now?
Scott Rice (19:02)
Um, okay. So the 10 seconds at the right hand of God, the father, but also in the bread and the wine that we have communion with. I'm kind of Lutheran. I am.
Becca Wickham (19:10)
Beep, beep, beep.
Sarah Shin (19:13)
You were very lucid!
Is that the Gen Z? Amazing!
Scott Rice (19:18)
Yes.
Becca Wickham (19:20)
All right,
and Sarah,
Sarah Shin (19:23)
Jesus is next to God the Father and his right hand and also he is with us wherever we're praying and wherever the Holy Spirit is present.
Scott Rice (19:33)
Good answer.
Becca Wickham (19:35)
Exactly 10 seconds too. All right. ⁓ Now, Sarah, you're going to go first for this one. ⁓ Is God an old man in the sky?
Scott Rice (19:37)
Yes.
good, good, good.
Sarah Shin (19:45)
You know, when Jesus tells us what God is like, he uses the word father, but he's a father that's better than any father, better than any man that we know. And so he's not exactly this guy. ⁓
Becca Wickham (19:57)
Beep beep.
Scott Rice (20:00)
⁓
Becca Wickham (20:02)
All right, Scott.
Sarah Shin (20:03)
you
Scott Rice (20:03)
no, I'm so, I was so into Sarah's answer that my answer, no. Got it, an old is, okay, literally is God an old man in the sky. Children, the answer is no. I'm good, that's all I got.
Becca Wickham (20:06)
I'm sorry.
Sarah Shin (20:16)
That's cool. How do I answer then, Mike?
Scott Rice (20:19)
All right. Here we go. This is my last one. I'm excited to be done with this. Next time I get to SEO. Make it an easy one.
Becca Wickham (20:19)
Let's see. Okay, Scott, you're...
⁓ Okay, Scott, you're going to go first for this one. Why did Jesus go into hell?
Scott Rice (20:27)
Yeah. Okay.
⁓ to show us the extent of God's love for us, to go into the furthest depths of death itself and demonstrate God's mercy.
Becca Wickham (20:42)
Sarah.
Sarah Shin (20:44)
Everything Scott said. Also, in 1 Peter, it says that Jesus went and preached the gospel to people from Noah's time. I think it just, Jesus went into places we can't even fathom to share the good news.
Becca Wickham (20:58)
Wow, you guys were both like right on 10 seconds that time.
Scott Rice (21:01)
It's such a can we do like that is it I you know I think I believe what I said but like I was saying that to kids they would just be like What you know what it like something? I don't like how do you talk to kids about that Sarah your answer? I thought like like resonated more with with children, but talking to kids
Sarah Shin (21:18)
I would use
the last battle with Tisrach, the ⁓ warrior. ⁓ You know, because like, I think some people are very deeply, very uncomfortable with this CS Lewis's book seven of the Narnia series. ⁓ But in that series, this is kind of the new heaven, new earth. There's a new Narnia that's come. And before that happens, there is a warrior from. ⁓
Scott Rice (21:21)
Say more.
Sarah Shin (21:42)
nation that's not Narnia and he dies thinking that he's going to meet the face of his god and he's doing everything that you know someone that from that is supposed to and as a new Narnia happens as the animals pass through this gate and they're following Aslan and everything is more beautiful Aslan encounters this warrior sitting under a tree and what he says to him is this like you you were looking for what you thought was real and true and you did best to try to live by that but what you were actually looking for was me
And so what he doesn't say is like, therefore you found me. He's just like, I am actually the one you've been looking for. Yeah. Do you want, do you want to follow me? Cause the name you've been looking for is Azlan. And I think in this very imaginative way, it's a beautiful way where it's like the warrior still has to say yes. Like I want, but there is some sort of sharing of the good news that happens there that we don't expect. ⁓ that's like, feels like a fiction version of first Peter three, right?
what Jesus said. And I'm like, for me, I'm like, I don't know exactly, like, you know, it's a it's a imaginative story. But it does help us imagine what could be without being like, this is absolute certainty. So I think as an author, CS Lewis does a fantastic job helping us just be like, I don't know. I can't fathom how deep God's mercy will go. But here's a picture of maybe a way. I love it. Yeah. Yeah.
Becca Wickham (23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rice (23:07)
Yeah.
Becca Wickham (23:07)
I
like that leaning into the mystery.
Scott Rice (23:12)
that says something like, oh, and that you can only kind of tell, I don't know, maybe we're dealing with such broad, hard concepts like the nature of hell and God going there to show us something that almost like a fictional story can capture in a way, can bring us closer to that than I can think of another way that would do is to get a job.
Sarah Shin (23:31)
Yeah.
Scott Rice (23:33)
Sarah, I wanna continue with the question that actually we were just touching on,
It might not sound like it initially, but it will get there. You know, I'm thinking about, you you talked about deconstruction and I'm certainly like this, the phenomenon of like, you know, the of asking difficult questions about faith, feeling compelled to do that, whether that's like.
described as deconstruction or just wanting a more greater curiosity in your faith. This is a very real thing for a lot of people. want to think about like a children's book that talks about God and resurrection. I wonder, ⁓ there any ways you think like a book like yours can help kids have faith experiences that they can hold on to that later in life will help them as they go through times when there's going to be doubts and there's going to be questions.
Is there a way that a children's book like this can help give them some foundations for knowing God in a certain way that will help them later on in life?
Sarah Shin (24:32)
Well, my answer to that is I don't think a book alone can do that. I think especially that the books that I've written for children, the Christmas book and the Easter book, they're often imagined that someone is reading it to them. Now, as I get older, like seven, eight, shortly, they can read it on their own. ⁓ But I think the idea is like faith is something that's transmitted from person to person, right? And so caregivers are witnesses.
And actually the stories that accompany the books that, again, in flesh it make it more concrete are so important. And I think this is where us sharing stories of like, hey, this is how I've trusted God. This is where I wrestle. I was waiting a really long time and I was really disappointed. But this is how like God changed things or answered prayer or this is how he unexpectedly changed things.
They need to remember that and they need to hear you remembering that. A book alone is not gonna do that. Like, so I don't think of the book as a silver bullet, but I think it opens up conversations that I hope are really beautiful and lasting. And I think about, ⁓ I was at Kara Powell when she writes about sticky faith, she talks about how actually ⁓ young people need five adults that are investing in them for their faith to stick. A lot of the research has shown this.
Now, Sarah Callan Johnson, who's written things on spiritual formation for families, she's made the point that actually, a lot of times Christian families relegate spiritual formation to the youth pastor, to the children's pastor, to the ministry. But she makes this really important point. She says, the primary caregiver, the parent, the foster parent, the grandparent, whoever it is, they are the ones that actually teach faith. And so actually, the person doing the discipleship
primarily or actually is actually that caregiver figure. So I think for that caregiver to be able to say like, this is how God worked in my life. This is how God worked in, has worked in your life. You prayed for this and this happened. You might not remember because you were three or four, but man, that prayer was really wonderful. Like they might not remember if you don't help them remember. So, ⁓ yeah. And so I think I would hope that this book actually brings out conversations. What do I hope in? What do I hope in about?
heaven when there's different pictures that show up and the kids are asking, tell me more about this, that they can share stories about like, this, is what it reminds me of in my own journey. This is what happens. And, I just preach a sermon, ⁓ at my church and we talked about this British missionary named Gladys Aylward and like the British missionaries from British revivalism times are just, I mean, they are
level. Like, so this woman, she was a, she was a cleaning maid in London, right? She ends up.
⁓ learning Chinese on her own and she just goes to China and she sets up an orphanage. learns Chinese and she has like 100 orphan children. Japan invades China, they're escaping, they get to a river and they can't cross because they've cut off every single way for people to cross the river and they're there and these hundred children, they ask her, didn't you say that God can part the waters? I'm like, wow. So ask him.
You said we can ask him for anything. So these hundred children pray and they sing. Right. And then a Chinese officer hears them, provides a boat for them all to cross the river to safety. And I just think about like those children heard stories from this woman about who God is, how he answers prayer. And they said, didn't you say? And I'm like, and that didn't you say matters because later they're going to come across.
conversations where someone's going to seem smarter than them. Philosophically, maybe in sciences, someone's going to say something that seems like it's disproving the idea of God or something divine, whatever it is. And they're going to have to wrestle with that. They're going to have to wrestle with the troubled inheritance of Christianity, all that stuff. But they're going to remember the stories you told them. They're going to remember the stories that you told about answered prayer, about him being faithful. And those stories are going to ground them in ways that
commitment to abstract truth or not. And so I think that's just so important. For me, that's like, I really would love to facilitate those incredible conversations of faith, you know, ⁓ and to help children remember. If they don't remember, if you don't have them remember as children, they won't remember when they're teenagers and adults. I'm firmly convinced of that because again, for 15 plus years, I worked with young adults, right? I know what they remember.
Becca Wickham (28:53)
you
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Shin (29:16)
And those stories, it confronts them. And it's an inheritance that's good. And I think we need to pass that on. So I start preaching, but you know, I feel very strongly about this. I'm like, I want to give my kid really good blocks that she does not throw out later. Because I know what they have to throw out later. That was my life, right? That was ministry. And I'm like, if she learns a good story that's not about being an airtight rational argument.
Becca Wickham (29:33)
Yeah.
Sarah Shin (29:44)
that it's about a really good God who's trustworthy. About being able to say, that season was really hard. Mama has a lot of questions she's gonna ask God ⁓ about that season. But I still trust Him and I still believe He is good. That's what I want to give her, more than being able to talk about, I don't know, some doctrine and dogma.
Becca Wickham (30:04)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rice (30:05)
You know, tell me if I if I have this wrong, but if I remember in the in the book, when you when you get to the crucifixion of Jesus, the child in the book asks the parent, you know, what's happening? Is this is this is this not like the the deliverance we were hoping for? Right. And then there's a part I think the parentess says, like, I'm not sure. And then resurrection comes. But I think, you know, the book, the book isn't, you know, a silver bullet. But there's a modeling there of
Sarah Shin (30:13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Scott Rice (30:35)
of honesty, of vulnerability,
all wrapped up, literally wrapped up right in the middle of the story of God with us. And I just think like that's a beautiful modeling for what I hope can help kids later in their formation.
Becca Wickham (30:45)
Thank
Sarah Shin (30:50)
Thank you.
Becca Wickham (30:52)
Well, Sarah, I hear you saying that parents should tell stories so their kids can remember and ask curious questions about their kids' ⁓ And I'm wondering if you have any practices or habits that you as a parent or as someone who interacts with kids have used to try to foster those conversations, to try to help parents and caregivers to continue.
Sarah Shin (31:19)
Yeah, man, again, I have one kid I primarily experiment on. ⁓ Mostly like it's almost like writing these kids books. I'm like, I want her to have really good biblical grounding that's beautiful, that helps her imagine herself in the story. ⁓ And I do think the things you named that we've already discussed are really important. ⁓
My kid is not someone that's an external processor. You some kids, they will tell you everything like, I ate this and it was, and this thing was fluffy. I'm like, no, my kid, most of her inner world is, is opaque to me. It's, only reveals it right when like, I'm so tired to like, know, I'm like, okay. ⁓ I think for me, I try, I would say like they say in general for children reading is really important. You know,
and some sort of rhythm and I've known that and as my kid changes, you she grows like the rhythms always need to change. But I'm always trying to figure out what's a good rhythm. Is it in the evening? She's not starting to rise with the sun. You know, I'm not a morning person, but like are there things that I can ask her? Because again, some kids will answer the direct questions like my kid won't. So I think I try to figure out what are the reading rhythms? What are the question asking rhythms?
Becca Wickham (32:37)
Hmm.
Sarah Shin (32:41)
can ask her about school and I can ask her about things and figure out a way where it's not so direct that it's like a yes no question, but it just gives her space to open up. Every family is going to be different. Every kid's going to be different with what they need for rhythms. Some families have like prayer walls where they put like a tree and then they put like prayers that they're praying and then when they're answered, they put them on the ground. It's this great visual. My kid would, I don't think that would work. It would last maybe like four days and we would like, you know.
We're not that kind of rhythms family. Some have tried to do an examine, like, where did you see God today? She's not into that. What she really loves is reading with me and asking me story, ask me questions about the story. So I've had to tailor it to what she wants. And every child, every family will be different, but you kind of have to figure out what kind of rhythm or practice helps generate the sharing of stories from real life. And I would recommend that. ⁓
Becca Wickham (33:18)
Hmm.
Sarah Shin (33:39)
And I'm sure there are wiser people than myself that I figured out really helpful, you know, like bite-sized practices. But that's complex if you have like a one-year-old and a three-year-old and a five-year-old. That's different than if you have like a one, two, three-year-old. I don't have a cookie cutter answer, but we have to figure it out.
Scott Rice (33:59)
Sarah, you have been a fantastic guest at Theology Lab, and I think what better way to finish up our interview besides our final interlude here, and I'm no longer in the hot seat, so I'm just enjoying life right now, and the questions only get harder. All right, are you all ready? 10 seconds each. Sarah, I'm gonna ask you to go first, and here's this question. The questions that come from real children to adults, ⁓ why doesn't God just stop all of the pain?
Sarah Shin (34:30)
That's a very great question. I don't know. What I do know is that he promises that one day all pain, suffering and death will stop and that we hope in that.
Scott Rice (34:42)
Thank you.
Becca Wickham (34:45)
I also don't know, but I know that God is good and He has given us free will. He gave people the ability to choose and so I think that has something to do with people can choose bad things.
Scott Rice (34:58)
Those were very impressive answers. Question number two. Well, I heard earlier in this interview, not that this is obviously from me, not a kid, the question's actually from a kid. I heard earlier in this interview, Sarah and myself say that Jesus is at the right hand of God. But then that raises a big question. If Jesus is at the right hand, and this is the question that truly comes from a kid, who is at Jesus' left hand? Becca, you get to go first here. Ready, set, go.
Becca Wickham (35:28)
I have no idea.
Scott Rice (35:32)
Very good. Sarah, to you.
Sarah Shin (35:35)
Also, I have no idea. It's a figure.
Scott Rice (35:36)
⁓ Sarah,
Becca Wickham (35:38)
⁓ Maybe a dog.
Scott Rice (35:42)
would you like to chime in on that answer?
Sarah Shin (35:44)
No,
I don't think it's a finger speech, right? And it represents closeness. But I don't think it's about like right or left. It's like he's really he's he's he's with God. It's like the closest way to be with God is to be. Yeah. So.
Scott Rice (35:59)
And then our final question is, oh, okay. Becca, I'm gonna ask you to go first on this one and then Sarah to go second. Why aren't Jesus's injuries healed after he's raised from the dead? Here we go.
Becca Wickham (36:15)
Clearly some of them were because he's alive. Right? So I guess maybe the scars or the stomata are still there to prove to his disciples.
Scott Rice (36:18)
Yes, yes, yes.
That was good. I stop, but you can keep going. That's, yeah. Good answer there. Yeah, I'm really intrigued. Prove to his disciples.
Becca Wickham (36:30)
No, no.
⁓ to prove to the disciples, the question, ⁓ Thomas, right? He said, yeah, you really Jesus. Like, yes, look, like the scars are there. He's healed, but not entirely, which is, but that brings up so many more questions, like back to the mystery.
Scott Rice (36:53)
Sarah?
Sarah Shin (36:56)
Christians believe in a scarred not in like some perfect God far away from our world. He was with us and reminds us that he was with us, he died for us, and he's risen from the dead.
Scott Rice (37:10)
Well, well done,
I'm going to leave information about the great waking up in the show notes to this episode. This book will be linked as well as the deliver has come.
Sarah.
Thank you so much for joining us at Theology Lab and thank you for this fantastic book that you and Shin have put out.
Sarah Shin (37:29)
Thanks so much. It so fun.
