Munther Isaac & Mary Speta on War, Trafficking & How to Love One's Enemy
⭐ A Theology Lab podcast on faith and justice amidst suffering and evil. Rev. Munther Isaac—known for his influential sermon “Christ in the Rubble”—and Mary Speta, Executive Director of Amirah, discuss how faith helps them love amidst impossible situations. The conversation addresses theology and the message of Scripture.
Together, they offer thoughtful theological reflection on some of today’s most challenging global issues: war, human trafficking, trauma, and the radical call to love one’s enemy. Designed for learners, students, and anyone seeking to deepen their understanding of Christian moral discernment, this Theology Lab session (part of the Deliver Us From Evil series).
Rev. Munther Isaac brings pastoral insight shaped by conflict and suffering, while Mary Speta offers an expert, survivor-informed perspective on exploitation and restorative justice. Key learning themes include: Christian approaches to understanding war, violence, and human suffering How faith communities can respond to human trafficking with wisdom and compassion The call to love one’s enemy and its implications for discipleship, as well as reflecting on how to deal with anger
Description
Explore a powerful educational conversation on Christian ethics, peacemaking, and compassion in this Theology Lab session featuring Rev. Munther Isaac—known for his influential sermon “Christ in the Rubble”—and Mary Speta, Executive Director of Amirah. Together, they offer thoughtful theological reflection on some of today’s most challenging global issues: war, human trafficking, trauma, and the radical call to love one’s enemy. Designed for learners, students, and anyone seeking to deepen their understanding of Christian moral discernment, this Theology Lab session (part of the Deliver Us From Evil series) provides a rich foundation for use in learning / the classroom, small-group formation, and personal reflection. Rev. Munther Isaac brings pastoral insight shaped by conflict and suffering, while Mary Speta offers an expert, survivor-informed perspective on exploitation and restorative justice. Key learning themes include: Christian approaches to understanding war, violence, and human suffering How faith communities can respond to human trafficking with wisdom and compassion The call to love one’s enemy and its implications for discipleship, as well as reflecting on how to deal with anger
Resources
Learn more about the organization Mary leads: https://www.amirahinc.org/
Check out Rev. Munther's book: https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802885548/christ-in-the-rubble/
Generated Transcript
Scott Rice (00:00)
This is our third session in the Deliver Us from Evil series.
We're joined by Mary Spetta. She is the executive director of
It's a group that ⁓ works with folks who have experienced trafficking and it focuses on empowering them out of exploitation.
I can tell you, I've just seen people who work with this group, the stories that come out of it.
It is phenomenal. Mary, thanks for being a guest at
Theology Lab.
Reverend Muthur Ishak, you're zooming in from Ramallah, you're pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church there in Ramallah, a rather new post for you. You've been a public
on behalf of and for Palestinians with the war going on in Gaza.
You
the author of this popular book.
Christ in the rubble. ⁓ Reverend Muthur, thank you so much for joining Theology Lab.
Munther Isaac (00:53)
Of course, thanks for having me, of course.
Scott Rice (00:55)
to learn from you and to be
Let me get started with this question here. This is a larger theme in our series.
It has to do with loving our enemies. I think in a lot of Western,
When I think about what it means to love an enemy, it's something like, like I think about a political enemy, I think about arrival at work, I think about estranged family members. Those are like the concepts that come up with loving one's enemy.
But you're working with people and perhaps you've experienced this yourself, where your very well-being is threatened. In that kind of context, what does it mean to love your enemy?
Mary Speta (01:34)
When I think about ⁓ this question, ⁓ what comes to mind is something that Dallas Willard has written, which is that God cares less about what we do and more about who we are becoming.
And
so how does that apply here? ⁓
primary goal as Christians, my primary goal in this work is not to love my enemy, my primary goal is to love God and to become who God is calling me to be.
loving my enemy then extends from that. I don't think truly loving someone who has so deeply harmed us or harmed our loved ones or harmed our communities is something that's strictly within our grasp as humans without God in the picture. It's loving God that makes it possible to love my enemy. And when my focus is there, I'm less likely to slip into that hatred or revenge or aggression
toward this other person. ⁓ It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm, you know, actively in community with someone who has harmed me, if that's not a healthy situation, but ⁓ loving God has to come first. It is because God so loved the world that therefore I follow.
Scott Rice (02:54)
Reverend Muthler, how about you?
Munther Isaac (02:57)
It's very difficult and challenging question. It's one I would put in the category of words I wish Jesus never said, you know, because they're so hard to follow, yet they're still there. And I think once we consider them seriously, we realize the wisdom in these words and how much needed they are in our world.
They remain difficult to follow, especially, for example, in our context, the context of a genocide, a context of an opponent who is publicly declaring that they seek to eliminate us
and so much killing, so much images that we've seen, that we have witnessed with real threat on a daily basis. How do you translate that into loving the enemy? ⁓ I think an important element here to remember is that this is not about affections.
So when you say love the enemy, it's not about having, you know, Hollywood kind of falling in love, not at all, because love in scripture is not sentiments. It's what you do, how you treat your enemy. And then we have to consider then the options we have at our hand when faced with an enemy who seeks to harm us. We can retreat.
We can retreat to a place of hatred
revenge and resentment and then seek revenge, violence. And we've seen the result of that in our world. We can retreat and isolate and withdraw and say, you know, we cannot change things. And again, this is not what Jesus thought when he said when someone hits you on one side, you don't just look down and withdraw in shame. No, you face and you ⁓
you're willingly endure more pain to restore the relationship.
So loving the enemy, I think it's important here to say that it must mean that we seek to ⁓ correct them, to help them stop the evil they are doing, to challenge the evil, if necessary, you know, ⁓ seek justice,
because that's also part of the matrix. So loving the enemy.
means sometimes resisting their evil without turning them into an opponent that you seek to eliminate. ⁓ This is something Palestinian theologians have ⁓ talked a lot about, especially in the Kairos Palestine document when they talked about ⁓ it's the commandment. So we must resist evil with good. so resistance, what
many call nonviolence, what we call creative resistance, resisting evil without ⁓ going to violence or to hatred is how you love ⁓ your enemy by seeking to correct them without
necessarily ⁓ developing ⁓ emotions of hatred and seeking ⁓ revenge. It's a very challenging thing to do, but this is what Jesus taught us.
Scott Rice (06:11)
Could I put a question out here and I'll invite both of you to respond, so Reverend Muthler, you said ⁓ to love an enemy is to speak truth. It is to try to bring a correction where you sense that is needed. Is there anything that either of you find yourself saying that is not often received as love, but that you are speaking from a place of trying to love
well?
something that you give voice to that may be hard for others to receive and hear, but you may be able to clarify what that is. Because what I'm trying to, I think, get at is what it
of looks like in a tangible way to love an enemy in the midst of how hard that is.
Munther Isaac (06:53)
Yeah, I can give an example that from my own activism, if I may say so, one of the things we've been, for example, calling for as Palestinian Christians, especially the activists and theologians of us and some church leaders, is the need to impose sanctions on, for example, Israel or weapon embargoes, even boycotting. In this sense, we're putting pressure on a state, on a political system.
to abide by international law and human rights
without yielding to violence, without killing. ⁓ And so others might look at it as hateful. You you're isolating, you're boycotting, you're putting sanctions. But in our understanding, this is creative nonviolent resistance using and mobilizing grassroots around the world to say, ⁓ we cannot have a state that is above the international law. And the way to stop it is when we all come together as a humanity and say,
We cannot accept this. That's why we demand a weapon embargo. We demand boycotting those who approve with the genocide and so on. And we've done so in the past
when our South African siblings called for and that's what the church leaders called for, boycotting South Africa and sanctioning it at the height of apartheid. Did they do it out of hatred? Did they do it out seeking revenge? I know those people. I know many of those church leaders who were heavily involved in that.
And they would tell you that there was the logic of love. That was ⁓ loving the enemy without seeking to kill ⁓ the enemy, but transforming the political structure into one in which there is equality and justice. So these are not just words that we use in theological. We must translate them into action. Otherwise, people won't take us seriously. And this is a perfect example where I think it can be even effective.
Mary Speta (09:15)
demand for pornography.
If there was no demand for strip clubs and escorts and all of these kinds of things, then there would be no trafficking ⁓ in that arena to make money. If there was no demand for cheap goods, there would be no trafficking of forced labor. ⁓ And so in church contexts, when people ask me, what can I do about human trafficking, et cetera, and I particularly think within churches, I think
about guys and porn. ⁓ And that's not something that people like to hear me talk about or hear or hear me say. And honestly, most men use porn because they haven't gone to therapy for something, you know, they've got to work something out there. ⁓ But it's not something that that ⁓ is something that people want to hear of, shoot, I am actually the enemy. I may be contributing to this problem of human trafficking.
human suffering,
that even one choice to click on one video leads to a series of actions and consequences ⁓ in which a trafficker is making thousands and thousands of dollars exploiting this girl on the other side of the camera who doesn't want to be there.
so when I think about loving our enemy and our work at Amira, ⁓ partnering with churches to understand this issue, going into spaces and
Scott Rice (10:55)
I would imagine...
that both of you experience some degree of anger
you care about this deep cause and you feel like there are many Christians around the world who might just ignore it
or think that it's not really going on. I'm sure this is gonna be different for both of you in your different spheres.
What does it look like to harness that anger and move it into action?
Munther Isaac (11:16)
Actually, if I've learned anything in the last two years is that anger can actually be something really good ⁓ if it's channeled in the right direction because I'd rather be angry at injustice and evil than be apathetic ⁓ or neutral.
And I think we live in a time in which we have become so much numb to so much suffering, be it human trafficking, ⁓
or wars, ⁓ famines, ⁓ discrimination, caste systems, and so on, ⁓ that we're not doing enough to stop it. And in fact, ⁓ I'll never forget this because it meant so much to me and it continues to impact me. A week before my ordination, a friend of mine sent me a prayer, commonly known as the Franciscan prayer.
And one part of that prayer says, may God bless you with anger at injustice, oppression, and exploitation of people so that you may work for justice, freedom, and peace. And I'm so grateful for that prayer. I'm so grateful I prayed that prayer and sometimes we don't know what we're praying for. ⁓ Because anger is the first step towards trying to change something when you're angry at something, when you're so much
⁓ in your soul ⁓ disturbed about injustice that means you care
then that also means you move first to God to lament to protest to ask why why aren't you stopping this and then to act and then to speak out and then to do something ⁓ and it's good to be angry whether at God sometimes why would you allow this or
In my case, our case as Palestinians, many times we're not just angry at those who oppress us, but those who are silent. In my case, the church also, the theology they have enabled to work, that is used to enable or support that oppression. And so once you're angry at something, you are moved to ⁓ change it. So it's all a matter of question what you do with the anger. Again, it goes back to the same thing. You can either...
let it sink in and turn into bitterness into anger ⁓ that dwells in you or you can channel it into prayer
into activism into mobilization and ⁓ I've learned again in this world how important it is to channel your anger in the right direction even in a sermon you know many people know me from the sermon I preached 2023 in Christmas Christ in the rubble
The first words of that sermon were, are angry. And you know, when people look back and say, this is a sermon that was heard in millions around the world, and the first three words were, we are angry. I think that shows that actually anger is good, because ⁓ it can ⁓ help us go into new places and hopefully make a difference in our world.
Mary Speta (14:59)
there is a difference between a reaction and a response.
A reaction is reflexive. It's that knee-jerk, you know, reaction to something ⁓ in front of me. And a reaction, what I have found, is actually more likely to perpetuate evil or to, you know, bring about evil or cause me to sin in some other type of way.
Whereas a response is chosen. A response is thought through. A response is grounded in truth and understanding the impact of a decision.
Scott Rice (15:45)
I answer this only if you would like, it's a little bit vulnerable, but I'm wondering if you have
anger towards God in your work in times where you've just felt angry in the sense of hope, just it isn't there yet. What do you do in situations like that?
Mary Speta (16:05)
Ooh, that's a big one. My honest answer is yes. There have absolutely been times when I have been angry with God.
and in times when I have had to step back from making decisions because the only thing that I've been experiencing in that moment is anger toward God, toward everything, toward all sorts of situations.
what I have found for me, and I think about the story in First Kings 19 where Elijah goes into the desert and he's angry at God
It's like all these, you know, I'm trying to do your work and all these people aren't responding to it and so I'm just gonna lay here and die.
Munther Isaac (17:33)
no,
I mean, I think we all have these feelings many times. all think it's natural, it's human. And in our fallen world, if we look around and are serious people about all the evil in our world, we can't but ask these questions and get angry at God.
⁓ The important thing to me is to channel that anger first as I said to God. ⁓ That's why we have Psalms of lament.
My God, why have you forsaken me? Well, we all know God doesn't forsake us, but that's how we feel. And God allows us, actually God encourages us, invites us to express how we feel. ⁓ It's maybe even good therapy, I don't know. But that's important. I think it's really important that we turn to God
I've written Psalms, used the Psalms on what's happening in Gaza. But if I'm really honest, Scott, my anger in the last two years and even beyond that has more towards the church. know, the more when I look back and think, when was I most angry?
It's ⁓ from.
stuff church leaders said or pastors or theologians, especially evangelicals or mainline pastors or statements. That's when we became so irritated ⁓ more than anything. Because again, you expect bad things from the world, even from whether it's politicians, bad people, whatever. ⁓ But when church leaders echo these statements or
support genocide or are okay with the killing. That's when you begin boiling. That's when you're like, come on, not this. This is not the same Jesus and so on.
Unfortunately, that has been our experience. We've been more angry from church leaders than we are from anything maybe else.
Scott Rice (19:38)
Yeah,
I want to move to a question here that has to do with what motivates a response.
So I have to give credit to ⁓ co-host Greg Fung for kind of helping me think about this question. Because the question is like, know, what is it that prevents us from responding to evil and the suffering around us? What prevents me
from taking more seriously human trafficking? What prevents me from listening more closely to my Palestinian Christian neighbors and friends?
And, you know, I post the question to my friend and he goes, you know, we know the answer to this, right? Like, we don't do this because we don't want to, because we can be in a privileged place. It makes us uncomfortable. So think that's a real sentiment that I want to name. And it leads me to this question here.
What do you think might help make Christians want to address the evil and the suffering that both of you see in the world?
Something that say, as a Christian, not only am I obliged to do this, but now it's my
are changing and I feel more compelled to do this. I want to address these things. Could either of you speak into that?
Munther Isaac (20:56)
I can
yeah, you said something that I've seen a lot, which is about people not willing to leave their areas of comfort and engage with something that they think it's complicated. But I think it's beyond that, Scott. I think people don't want to also leave a place of not just comfort, but self-righteousness. We feel safe, but we feel
righteous in our bubbles
and can easily point to the evil in the world that exists outside of our bubble as if we have nothing to do with it. In fact, when it comes to the Palestinian issue, I've often found that people like to characterize it, for example, as ⁓
a battle between good and evil with good being the Judeo-Christian tradition, evil being you need an enemy. So it's the Arabs, it's Muslims. And that puts you in a place of privilege
⁓ Vice President then and the first Trump administration Pence visited the Israeli Knesset, he said, we stand with Israel because we believe in
good over versus evil, right over wrong, liberty over tyranny. So we're the ones who believe in tyranny, liberty. We're the ones who believe in good. We're the ones who believe in ⁓ what's right. ⁓ We're good and everything wrong in the world because the others are bad. And I think one of the things we try to do is first, you know, it's a Santa Biblical thing to have Santa Biblical worldview. It's, talk a lot about the theology of humility that we need.
more than that, I think when we realize how complicit we are ⁓ in a lot of the bad things in our world, ⁓ know, ⁓ marriage just touch on that, ⁓ you know, the consumerism, you know, there are people who there's a market for sex in our world. That's why human trafficking exists. In our case, if it wasn't for the theology of Christian Zionism, many would argue we wouldn't be where we are today in Palestine.
It's this serious. It's not just it's a theological belief. No, from the days of the British Empire, evangelical Christians helped facilitate the immigration of Jews to Palestine for, you know, fascination of end times and so on. And we look at now who is the strongest supporters of Israel and continuing this war. It's it's motivated by Christian sentiments and theology.
And I wish people realize how much impact.
their theology, their action, their positions have on people's lives, whether they know it or not, whether they admit it or not. I wish they see that we're all into this. You you're complicit in this, but also that, you know, we're all into this as a human family. We can't just think this has nothing to do with me. So how do we go and challenge this self-centeredness, this area of not just comfort, but self-righteousness? ⁓ I think once we crack into that,
we help people move outside and see that, you know, their vulnerability, they can help others and we can together make a difference in our world.
Mary Speta (25:49)
empowers us to see these root causes, to go deeper, to persist, to when we're confronted with an issue, to look at how God is calling us to respond to that and then actually follow in that vein. That is very, very difficult to do.
we need to be disciples. We need to be disciplined in our responses. We need to be disciplined ⁓ in our understanding and educating ourselves.
Scott Rice (26:34)
So then that leads me to two short questions for me before we go to the Q
Munther Isaac (26:35)
Yeah.
Scott Rice (26:39)
⁓ Let me see if I can, I'll try to make this just a little bit poignant. Mary, ⁓
see trafficking, they're like, if it's a global issue, it's beyond me. Are there ways you'd say, hey, no, actually turn to your local community and hear something I'd advise you to consider
Let me put that question to you and ask, is there one thing you might ask people to do?
Mary Speta (26:59)
I have a quote on the wall of my office. As you're leaving my office, the quote is right there. And it says, much for me as it is for anyone, is a quote from Mother Teresa that says, if you want to change the world, go home and love your family.
And it's such a simple statement, but there's so much wrapped up in that as a strategy for transforming our communities, for transforming our world.
Because it makes us ask, what does love look like? How do I love best? You know, we learn about love because God is love. That's the ultimate example of love. So how does that lay out, play out in my life? But then also who is my family? We think about our family as just being our nuclear family or the people who are related to us. But who is God calling to be in my family? We think about the family of God. We think about the church. We think about people who don't feel accepted in an American church context, but our longing
⁓ And that's how we help people combat these massive systemic issues in their everyday lives. ⁓ How is poverty manifesting in this person's life? How is neglect manifesting in this foster child's life? How is abuse manifesting in this woman's life who's leaving a DV situation? How is exploitation manifesting in this person's life who is not being paid a livable wage? ⁓
Scott Rice (29:12)
Reverend Muthler, let me go to you on this question. Reverend Muthler, if there's something that you would ask Western Christians to do,
would you consider speaking to the person who looks at the situation and says, that's too complex, that's too big for me, ⁓ and essentially then just backs away from looking into that more and asking what is their responsibility as a Christian?
Munther Isaac (29:30)
Yeah.
Well, thank God Jesus didn't come here and say it's complicated.
can't do anything.
Scott Rice (29:38)
Ha!
Munther Isaac (29:40)
Everything in life is complicated if we make it that. ⁓ What I want to say actually is that
whether an American Christian, especially evangelical like it or not, you're already involved. You're already contributing so much, especially if you're American, by the way, because of your tax money. ⁓
You're funding ⁓ the war that most experts and human rights organizations, the respected one, ⁓ a overwhelming majority of genocide and Holocaust scholars around the world have described as a genocide. Now you can simply say, that's just, they have an agenda or whatever, or you can
pause for a moment and say, why am I funding this? ⁓
the immunity Israel enjoys to the extent that it's above the international law is solely ⁓ due to American support, know, the veto in the United Nations and so on. So you can't just pretend I have nothing to do with this. You have everything to do with this. And then there is the theology part
to the extent that right now we have ⁓ Congress people.
⁓ say if you bless Israel God will bless you prominent ones you have the Israeli the American ambassador in this land always citing scripture and saying we have a mandate to support Israel the Jewish people they're chosen and so on so whether you like it or not the theology that has been the prominent one in the United States for the last 50 60 70 years is very much strongly towards supporting Israel at the expense of Palestinians
So here you have now Palestinian Christian leaders pleading with your siblings, with you as your siblings, as our siblings in Christ, pleading to be heard, pleading to say your theology is harming us. Your theology is putting our lives in danger.
So you can't just pretend, I have nothing to do with this. You have everything to do with this. ⁓ And it's time that we get into a serious conversation about theology, about the root causes of all of this.
about the attitudes that currently exist in many church circles towards Arabs, towards Muslims, attitudes that ⁓ cause many to not abide with the most fundamentalist commandment of Jesus to love your neighbor as yourself. So we ignore that because we
harbored attitudes of resentment, heard the dehumanization towards Palestinians. So I don't want to hear.
You know, it's complicated or I have nothing to do. You everything to do with it. And it's time that as I've been saying, the church in the United States stops becoming part of the problem and begins becoming part of the solution by following Jesus, being peacemakers, speaking truth and listening and engaging and and trying to make a difference. And it starts with, as I said, the attitudes, the theology and and even the political positions that exist currently.
Scott Rice (32:54)
I appreciate the honesty and bold of your answers.
answers. And I would hope that
can give
I'm asking every guest in this series this question. ⁓ What does it mean for you right now when you pray deliver us from evil?
Munther Isaac (33:10)
To me, it's a very simple, practical thing. I live in an area where danger surrounds us every time, everywhere. I travel at roads where I know it's a risk to travel at these roads because of the settlers. Israeli military is around our neighborhoods on constant basis these days. I can only imagine what this means also for someone in Gaza in the last two years. Deliver us from evil. ⁓
safety ⁓ more than anything these days and it comes back to the basic issues you know ⁓ our desire to live in safety and dignity in our land without checkpoints without harassments without fear of being shot for no reason ⁓ and so on so this is to me a very
Basic, I'm sorry it's not a theological answer. It's a very honest and basic question. Safety and dignity in our land.
Scott Rice (34:16)
Amen.
Amen to that as well. And let me just say in response, I want you both
hear this from me. The prayer, deliver me from apathy, I think is being answered for me. And I would imagine other people as well, simply by your faces and seeing the work that you do and that you continue with this, it makes me say, I have something to contribute as well, compelled by my love for God.
Let me go to a Q &A. Hopefully I can get one question to both of you
Mary, would you be willing to speak for just a minute about your prayer life in the of the depth of the suffering, the evil that you might see people going through when you pray,
none of this is ever faceless. So do you find yourself praying against people? Do you find yourself praying against, we've talked about
and forces and spiritual warfare in here. What does your prayer life look like in your work?
Mary Speta (36:27)
prayer life looks like a non-stop, very intense chat with
and listening in that sense. The pray without ceasing is me constantly going to God in order to ask him to say something back and to listen.
Scott Rice (37:28)
You pray as if God is alive and living and with you. And ⁓ that speaks volumes.
Reverend Muthra,
you've made a distinction in your work ⁓ from between the Genesis 12 and 15, the promise to Abraham, the promise to the Israelites.
and then a distinction between that blessing and then the current state of Israel saying
these two easily get conflated. The question is, can you still understand the blessing, the promise from early chapters of Genesis to play out in a way where Jews, Palestinians, all people today would be able to live together, to still draw from that promise and be able to
together in a better way than what's going on now.
Munther Isaac (38:19)
think we can certainly be inspired by that promise. But before I answer that and talk about that particular text, I really want to caution about always trying to find something in scripture as if it relates directly to the modern reality in this land. So the solution we think to the Palestinian Israeli question, ⁓
a question of apartheid and discrimination and has political historical realities. And we many times feel if we can only interpret a certain prophecy of or if we figure out Genesis 12, we can find a solution. And I'm not comfortable with that approach. I'm not sure that's the intent behind that question. But in general, I'm not comfortable about that approach.
As if my fate has been decided by what God has said about the Canaanites or whoever the descendants of Abraham are. And then we have to have this battle as to who is the offspring of Abraham and so on. And of course, we go to scripture and ⁓ battle on technical and I can do that. Believe me, I can do that. I have a
in biblical studies on the theology of the promised land. I'm happy to engage in that, but I will always ask how is that relevant?
⁓ At the same time, yes, the Bible is relevant and we can and should be inspired by the spirit of things by what God intends to do because ⁓ the whole Abrahamic episode, whether beginning from Genesis 12 onward, I mean that verse that is often quoted Genesis 12, one to three ends with the desire, you know, so that in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
So there is an inclusive universal picture here in which God say clearly to Abraham ⁓ through you, through your offspring, I desire to bless everyone, not just you.
Somehow we turn the blessing of Abraham into an entitlement. You have to bless certain people rather than a mean of blessing others. So if you really understand chosenness, I always say it's a way of, you you have to bless others, not to demand that others bless you. And this is how we turned it.
Let's remember how God changed the name of Abraham from Abraham to Abraham. Why? Because you will be the father of many nations. Again, there is this image of inclusivity, universality rather than particularity and exclusivity that we're so good about in our world these days. So this is what I mean where this is where scripture can become helpful. God is the God of all nations. God has dealt with Abraham precisely because he wanted to redeem humanity.
all the families of the earth. And from that, we can draw inspiration that God loves the Palestinians and the Israelis alike. We cannot talk about a particular people, a particular plan for a certain people and then try to fight about that plan and then actually sin against the Jewish people because we always as Christians try to fit them within our eschatology or our theology and their begging. need to be treated as people of faith, as your neighbors deal with us as such.
So I hope we move away from the particular, you know, a certain interpretation from biblical times that we apply it as if with a straight line to what's happening in Palestine today and instead be inspired by the God who desires to bless all nations. And as Christians, of course, we believe that is through Christ and the blessing came and you have the interpretations of that. But at least
Can we agree that God desires to bless everyone that he's the God of all nations and love all people equally?
Scott Rice (42:13)
Is there something that you would like to ask Christians in the West to do or a way that you would ask Christians in the West to be praying for you, your people and the region?
Munther Isaac (42:25)
I think more than anything right now, the people of Gaza need our prayers for healing, for dignity. ⁓ Yes, I have so many things to say and I've been saying them using my platform about the need for accountability, about the need for justice, about the need for the global community to come together and say enough is enough of a state being above the international law. And that's why
You know, whether people like what I say or not, that's why I still believe that only when we impose ⁓ economic measures, weapon embargo and other means of what we call creative resistance, then Israel will be forced to look in the mirror and ask, is this the path we want to seek in which we're against everyone? ⁓ You know, and interestingly, actually, that's what
Trump said about Netanyahu, he told him the whole world is against you. Well, of course the whole world is against you because you're committing war crimes on air. ⁓ So how do we stop that? And it can't just be by being naive and let's pray for peace or we're grateful that the killing stopped. No, it has to be based on justice, on truth, based on grounds of equality and equal rights. Only then we can have a...
So I hope church leaders help us with that message. I hope people echo that message. I hope people elevate our voices and help us in our messages. And as Palestinian Christians, we're tired when people speak about us or on our behalf. No, we're capable of speaking ourselves. If anything, we're asking people to echo and to amplify our messages. And let's continue to pray for the people of Gaza for healing, for restoration. ⁓
We're happy the war ends. just, you know, was on the phone yesterday with a friend in Gaza and he's like, we don't know what's going to happen. Okay. Are we going to leave the churches where we've been staying 18 people in one classroom for the last two years? My house is destroyed. Where do I go? I don't know. You know, are you going to find a place to rent? He's like, most places are destroyed, you know, and, and rent now has become so expensive because the places that were not destroyed are or partially destroyed are so few.
You know, these are the real questions people are facing right now. So it's by no mean over and whatever we can do to, you know, help this restore and rebuilding continuous, which is part of the plan. I hope it happens then so be it. So let's push for that as well.
Scott Rice (45:02)
Revan, Muthur, ⁓ Mary, thank you so much for being guests at Theology Lab. Thank you for the work you do. People who are viewing and listening, I'm gonna put links into the show notes for this. If you wanna learn more or support the work that they are doing, you can find a link to their work there. Thank you both for being guests at Theology Lab.
